Yes, dudley is neutured too, the males make a big thing about it, the females love him , wanting to play fight, and he loves the ladies, and obliges them at all times, and a wrestling match ensues, i just wish the males could be as engaging,i just wonder if its a male testosterone thing?

[QUOTE=MickB;1790156]Really interesting topic!

Human victimology studies tend to show that some people are much more likely to be bullied/assaulted/mugged than others and that this might be the result of a combination of body language and pheromones. As an example, I worked for 37 years as an outreach youth worker - walking the streets of our worst estates, making contact with drug users, criminals, gang members etc etc. In all that time I was never attacked or even threatened once. Some of my colleagues (who didn't last long in the job) were assaulted or threatened weekly - often by the same kids and often in much "safer" surroundings. Maybe there is a similar body language/pheromone mechanism in dogs which triggers attacks from other dogs.

That's interesting. You probably have a lot of confidence and confident body language, less likely to be picked on. Probably similar with dogs as my dog is submissive with other dogs but loves their company and they like him but because he is submissive maybe he is easily picked on. However, I still believe there were warning signs from the other dog.

Do the males "pick on" dudley cos hes neutured and lacks the male testosterone, the ladies certainly love him( no threat), does this make him a lower ranking male?

Dogs read body signals that are subtle and sometimes difficult to see unless you can watch it in slow motion. I agree that an unstable dog may be not able to 'talk dog' very well and that may unsettle other dogs - especially dogs with confidence problems - and may cause attacks - but they would have to be doing something - eye contact, fur position
There is an Akita in our street who gets lots of agression towards her - she is a big softy but she has been bred to walk very upright with alert ears and tail curled up over her back - she LOOKS agressive to other dogs
But she is never attacked without warning.

Scarter - what you talk about with your girl is her building up her warnings - and if she didnt draw blood then she was STILL warning - although you were right to step in

Dogs and wolves natural state is NOT to be agressive, wolves have been observed caring for the sick and I have even seen film of an alpha wolf tearing chunks off the kill and chucking them to another wolf - actually feeding a weaker dog.

At the moment Ben is v attentive to Mia and has been washing her wounds for her
When I was ill with a migraine and unable to get off the sofa with a towel over my head my dogs didnt try and attack me - they also didnt bug me to play or go outside or anything - they lay as close next to me as they could for the full day


Yes Scarter, I only heard about this when I was trying to find out what was going on with Ben
Sometimes a neutered male can smell (to dogs) a little like a bitch in heat and so they do get a bit pesterd by other dogs - even Ben gets fed up and chases dogs away from him when they sniff him too much so I do what you do - the other dog can have a polite sniff but then get lost

I am going to make one fairly short post and then exit.

Background:

Most of the dogs I am around are bred with getting along with other dogs a priority. They are placed in homes at 7 weeks and carefully socialized. This includes turning a dozen or more up to a year old loose in a fenced area under supervision. There is a lot of rough play and expressions of rank, but few attacks of any kind.

I was welcome to take our old, retired dog guide to the meetings too. She always enjoyed being around the other dogs. She paid little attention to them and they were happy to leave her alone. Even at a fragile 14 years old, she was never attacked.

So I say well balanced, nice dogs don't attack others without cause.

Ref neutered males - these dogs do tend to get "picked" on by other intact or late neutered male's and loved by bitches, cos they know he is not a bitch, but also (in their world) not a male, they are a "nothing" and therefore a target too. Many dogs that are neutered lose confidence because of the lack of testosterone, more so if they are neutered at a young age. The best time, imo, to neuter a dog is when he is cocking his leg to pee, and has a good level of self confidence At the end of the day, the weak minded will always get bullied, it happens with people too.

I do not believe any dog attacks without warning, just because we do not see the warning, dont mean to say it wasnt given. Poorly socialized dogs may also miss these warnings too.

Do you think it might have been more down to the way she behaved around the other dogs i.e. her self confidence, aloofness etc, more than how the other dogs were??

I tend to agree with you, and so does scarter. She writes
"Now of course, you can argue that there would have been subtle signs that we all missed. That's probably the case. But certainly not clear warnings.[TO HUMANS.]" ...

In a park I used to go to, I was accused several times of CAUSING dog fights with dogs not mine own. People were looking around thinking their dogs were fine and I would announce 'FIGHT!' and a fight would ensue. They were entirely blind to what the dogs were projecting.

I've never found that to be true, nor do I see how you link testosterone with confidence - and what about females? . As far as confidence is concerned, both environmental and social, experience seems to trump any hormone.

That's 8-10 weeks for every pup I've ever had. I've never associated it with confidence

I wonder how the initial 'attacks' or 'warnings' were dealt with though? Were the dogs told off for it? If so...then that explains the silent attacks afterwards, as their natural urge to warn a dog off had been supressed..or even ignored?
Yes...totally a question of inexperience.

The dog that attacked Tango last week (nothing serious, lots of noise and teeth) was not an 'aggressive' dog (as the owner was quick to point out) but a spoilt dog...that had never been in a position where it wasn't 'rewarded' for leaping up and down at a stranger with treats...so it attacked Tango who was getting one for being calm around this dog that was leaping around her. The chances are it will do it again to another dog and I do wonder how long it will take the owner to cotton on and do something about it.

How old was he when he was neutered? I think that is what it is. A friend's FCR is constantly humped by other dogs...he has now started telling the dogs off but they are insistent. I've seen it happen. Bless him, a lot of them even ignore his warnings. He tries so hard to ignore them then...running for his ball with a small dog attached to his back leg. He was neutered quite young.
Cosmo was humped a lot when he was a teenager...he was lacking in a bit of social confidence as a result...a lot of male dogs just felt it was ok to hump him. (He is entire). Now he ahs matured it has, in the main stopped.Infact a persistent humper of all the other dogs we know doesn't come near him. That isn't to say that a much more confident dog wouldn't try it on...but ....

What I am trying to say is that I think young males are often neutered at a time that is totally wrong for them....it is during a fear period when they tend to be going through a crisis of confidence anyway...to then remove testosterone (let alone have their hormones surging for a few months post op) means they have an awful lot to deal with and I personally think that is why some of them end up being picked on all the time. It is something they just don't get over.
I think you are right Mick in a lot of ways. It is what I said about the confident dogs in the park earlier... The less confident dogs in the park are the ones that are floored by the more confident 'gangs' of dogs that are excited by being in the park!