Hi there, i have the video of caesar and shadow, i copied off utube cos shadow is the spitting image of my ni dudley, he doesnt mistreat shadow at all, i agree that he probably didnt expect shadow to be as strong as he was, he almost had him over several times , shadow scratched both his arms and ripped his tshirt, all caesar did was let the dog wear himself out and release all the rage, then the dog calmed and displayed submission to caesar, dont forget this was an extreme case, the dogs have problemsbecause of bad owners, caesar says there are no bad dogs just humans who treat them like humans, then wonder why they stop behaving like dogs, you either love him or hate him, we will all have to agree to disagree on this one im afraid!!!

yup! I don`t agree with physically fighting dogs. Cos I`m human and I prefer to use more intelligent methods.

Except for other people who saw that clip, Shadow was not an "extreme" case, he was provoked into his reaction and then punished forcing him to fight.
That is not fair or acceptable.

Hey Cordie, I agree with the above. I think you'll find there will be a lot of opposition to that view though.

I'm not sure exactly how CM is supposed to deal with an aggressive dog of such size or power! I'm sure that clicker training or a rewarding treat wasn't going to help that particular situation, at that time.

Regarding the other stuff that has been said, which I feel some of you are saying that CM takes the power away from dogs by conditioning them (hence them not warning that they are about to attack another dog) I am afraid I'm a little confused. If the dog is so "conditioned" by CM methods to not show it's dislike of a dog, then why does the CM conditioned dog not cease attacking instantly the Owner tells it to, saving the attacked dog from serious injury. You can't have it both ways!

My Bichon didn't give any warning when she was about to attack my little Yorkie babe. It's the way some dogs are. She wasn't like it with any other dog. Just the Yorkie girl. CM wasn't heard of in those days (my girl would be 18 now and died 4 years ago). I didn't take charge of the situation, as I would now. I just separated the dogs when trouble broke out and did my best to keep the peace (yes I know I didn't really face the problem just tried to keep the peace - and failed miserably). I feel that had I been a more dominant pack leader, as I am now with my little bunch of lovelies, the problem would have been dealt with.

To address a question Mish asked of me;

I feel I need to use patience (not always so easy) with my Fluffles. She has a leather fetish and believe me, that girl has ruined hundreds of pounds of shoes, wallets...... the list is endless. I do have to take a deep breath when I see the latest "leather kill" she has produced (has been a pair of my Son's expensive trainers). I could have glady screamed at her when I've seen some of the devastation but I don't. I calmly show her the thing she's destroyed, tell her it's "bad" in my most serious but calm tone (which I know she understands because she looks at the floor sorrowfully - she's a lovely girl really but can't resist leather on occasion ). She can go months without feeding her leather fetish and then suddenly she loses the plot and we are back to a destroyed item.

By the way, hope Mia is feeling better today

Exactly.

I must admit, I am getting tired of the Shadow debate - it cannot be more clear that the dog was provoked, then choked/asphyxiated partially.

I just wish that people who do actually love dogs, but who are apparently mesmerised by the ballarney that comes from CM books/programmes, could see it.



Wys
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I suspect the original problem was not as bad as it was mde to be, and by the time filming started the dog was already in a hyped and very reactive state.
If I'd been working with such dog, I'd take a full case history, including medical, and possibly use a muzzle (unsure about that as you'd need to be there) and do some assessments to gauge the dog's reaction, then work with the owner to overcome the problems - using desensitisation and counterconditining and training

The Micheal Vick pitbulls were rehabbed this way - it can be done without aggression from the trainer or behaviourist

Wy
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My replies to Becky's comments in red above

I get your point Wys but isn't that what it's all about. You do things one way, CM another. It's all about choice for the dog owners. They get to choose which way they want their dog trained. Horses for courses and all that. What worked for the Michael Vick Pitts might not work for another dog

he chokes the dog until his trongue goes blue and collapses until he lies gasping on the floor, please explain to me how this is NOT mistreating a dog.
Comments like yours make me dispair, I truely wonder how many dogs are being treated like this because people don't see it as wrong.
No wonder animals are so abused when I read statements such as yours.
Becky

CM does things with a total lack of understanding of dogs and their body language. This clearly demonstrated in the way he deals with most of the dogs.
I find it staggering that people can't see this. But I guess you find it staggering that I might think what I do.

The idea of pinning is based on totally flawed theories. What is so hard to understand about that? and why would someone advocate that if they really had dogs best interests at heart?

ETA: and I'm speaking as someone who once thought pack theory and dominance was the answer to everything.