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Chocolatechien
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Location: Nr Bristol, UK
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17-01-2012, 11:06 PM
Hi, I know this is not practical medication advice but just to let you know my epileptic lab lived a very happy 16 years once diagnosed and treated. X
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Malka
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18-01-2012, 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by Shalva View Post
Everyone has to do what they think is best. Everyone who has a dog with epilepsy has to do what works for their dog... if it works don't fix it.
I think that it is inadvisable to state as you did when you said:

however milk thistle has been known to cause problem with the metabolism of the phenobarbital and as such should not be used on a daily basis but rather as a pulse... a couple weeks on a couple weeks off .... a couple weeks on a couple weeks off.... that way it protects the liver but doesn't allow for the metabolism issues.
without first checking the facts and, if possible, posting links to articles such as:

http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/MilkT...l#anchor319914

in which a lot of information is given and the following is stated:

Milk Thistle (Silymarin)

by R.M. Clemmons, DVM, PhD, Associate Professor of Neurology and Neurosurgery

There is no evidence that Milk Thistle has any adverse effects. It increases bile flow and bile content of cholesterol, but does not appear to decrease bile formation from the studies I have read. Most of this work has been done in rats, but their livers function basically the same as the dog. There is probably no reason for a normal dog to take milk thistle, unless there is exposure to potential hepatotoxins. Phenobarbital is a hepatotoxin, therefore, epileptics probably need it.
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Shalva
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18-01-2012, 01:35 PM
I think this is really important... my cuinn was diagnosed at 2 and is now 10 so yes they can live happy healthy lives and this is so important for people to know
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Shalva
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18-01-2012, 01:37 PM
as I stated everyone has to do what they feel is best for their dogs. I am simply relaying the information that was given to me by my Holistic Vet, Neurologist and regular vet. I can also verify that my dog and others have breakthrough seizures after time on milk thistle and those breakthrough seizures ended when the milk thistle was removed....

If you want to continue using it on your dog... and it is working for your dog good for you!

It did not work for my dog or many others who have experienced the same issue with breakthroughs... It no longer is something that is recommended by my holistic vet or other vets ... whereas the sam-e is recommended...

I will try and find my studies but again after 8 years of dealing with seizures and two computers later I don't know that I still have them....

However, I am not going to argue with you about it.
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Lucky Star
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18-01-2012, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Shalva View Post
no it does not damage the liver which is what that study states...

BUT it can interfere with the absorption of medications. That study specifically addresses whether milk thistle damages the liver which it does not
Hi Shalva

I understand that milk thistle may interact with some drugs that are metabolised in the liver - and that this may cause an increase or decrease in the therapeutic effect and/or side effects of a drug - but I can't find any information that specifically mentions any interaction between milk thistle and phenobarbital.

May I ask if your holistic vets have come across studies linking the two in the way you describe or are they observing unexpected seizure activity and linking it to the milk thistle just in case there is an interaction?
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Malka
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18-01-2012, 01:50 PM
Shalva - Milk Thistle does not interfere with the absorption of Phenobarbitone. I trust my Vet - I trust all the information he gives me regarding canine epilepsy.

And if he says that Milk Thistle does not interfere with the absorption of Pb, and all the documentary evidence says the same, then I will accept what he says. Not what you say.

Because there are no contra-indications between Pb and Milk Thistle, and I will continue giving my epi girl her Milk Thistle supplement every day.
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Lucky Star
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18-01-2012, 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by Shalva View Post
as I stated everyone has to do what they feel is best for their dogs. I am simply relaying the information that was given to me by my Holistic Vet, Neurologist and regular vet. I can also verify that my dog and others have breakthrough seizures after time on milk thistle and those breakthrough seizures ended when the milk thistle was removed....

If you want to continue using it on your dog... and it is working for your dog good for you!

It did not work for my dog or many others who have experienced the same issue with breakthroughs... It no longer is something that is recommended by my holistic vet or other vets ... whereas the sam-e is recommended...

I will try and find my studies but again after 8 years of dealing with seizures and two computers later I don't know that I still have them....

However, I am not going to argue with you about it.
Shalva , there's no need for anyone to argue about milk thistle. I am certainly not arguing anything, but genuinely interested, plus I think you've raised what could be an important issue, so I feel it should be made as clear as possible.

For many owners with epileptic dogs who take phenobarital, the use of milk thistle to help support the liver has been hugely important. It's bad enough having to deal with the fits but to have the worry about possible liver problems as well is pretty awful. If there is a question mark over milk thistle, it needs to be aired so that owners are aware.

However, I can't find anything linking milk thistle with phenobarbital (PB), which is why I've asked if you can substantiate what you have said, in terms of studies, etc.

I, too, have an epileptic dog. He's seven now, and has been on KBr alone for years. However, I may need to introduce PB and if I do, I would want to try to ensure his liver is supported.
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DeeBuzzby
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19-01-2012, 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by Chocolatechien View Post
Hi, I know this is not practical medication advice but just to let you know my epileptic lab lived a very happy 16 years once diagnosed and treated. X
Thanks for your support "chocolate dog"! always good to hear a positive story.
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sjenks66
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28-01-2012, 09:19 PM
Hi, i have a 7 year old dalmatian called George. he was diagnosed with epilepsy when he was 2 1/2. the vets put him on Phenobarbitone and Potassium Bromide. we tried this for over 2 years, but to be honest, there was no relief from epilepsy. his fits were totally random, 2 or 3 over a couple of months or a couple every other week, there was no set pattern. he was suffering with cluster seizures from 3 or 4 upto 9 the last time in less than an hour. i have researched different remedies and cures, but nothing made a difference, e.g. giving vitamins c, a, and b complex. then one day i read about addatives in dog food that has an effect on dogs susceptible to canine epilepsy, ethoxyguin, BHA, and BHT. BHT is the worst. manufacturers are not required to list these on the tin. i stopped giving George any dog food and now feed him on freshly cooked hearts, liver, kidneys, fresh beefburgers and even tuna and kippers. he sometimes has fresh vegetables mixed in as well. we are now over 13 months seizure free. he sometimes has a twitch (like somebody making a loud noise, making him jump)
but no fits. i am not saying this is a cure, but it is currently working for us.
hope this may help
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DeeBuzzby
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29-01-2012, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by sjenks66 View Post
Hi, i have a 7 year old dalmatian called George. he was diagnosed with epilepsy when he was 2 1/2. the vets put him on Phenobarbitone and Potassium Bromide. we tried this for over 2 years, but to be honest, there was no relief from epilepsy. his fits were totally random, 2 or 3 over a couple of months or a couple every other week, there was no set pattern. he was suffering with cluster seizures from 3 or 4 upto 9 the last time in less than an hour. i have researched different remedies and cures, but nothing made a difference, e.g. giving vitamins c, a, and b complex. then one day i read about addatives in dog food that has an effect on dogs susceptible to canine epilepsy, ethoxyguin, BHA, and BHT. BHT is the worst. manufacturers are not required to list these on the tin. i stopped giving George any dog food and now feed him on freshly cooked hearts, liver, kidneys, fresh beefburgers and even tuna and kippers. he sometimes has fresh vegetables mixed in as well. we are now over 13 months seizure free. he sometimes has a twitch (like somebody making a loud noise, making him jump)
but no fits. i am not saying this is a cure, but it is currently working for us.
hope this may help
Thanks a lot for telling me about your experience with an epi dog. Did you always give your dog just tinned food, or did you give him dry kibble too? i'm just wondering if the additives are also present in dry food. I give Archie Royal Canin.I think I will contact the manufacturer and ask about BHT....
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