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Bulldogs4Life
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02-02-2018, 02:19 AM

The breeding of dogs

Discussion or debate welcome. Opinions? What's good about it? What's bad about it? What changes / improvements could be made? What makes a good breeders vs a bad breeder? You don't have to answer all the questions, whichever one or ones you want and can pose a different idea or question. Diverse discussion is always great.
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Besoeker
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02-02-2018, 05:19 AM
Originally Posted by Bulldogs4Life View Post
Discussion or debate welcome. Opinions? What's good about it? What's bad about it? What changes / improvements could be made? What makes a good breeders vs a bad breeder? You don't have to answer all the questions, whichever one or ones you want and can pose a different idea or question. Diverse discussion is always great.
Pros and cons.
Pro. It's a commercial enterprise. Breeders make money from their enterprise.

Con. There are already too many dogs in rescue centres needing a forever home.
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Bulldogs4Life
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02-02-2018, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by Besoeker View Post
Pros and cons.
Pro. It's a commercial enterprise. Breeders make money from their enterprise.

Con. There are already too many dogs in rescue centres needing a forever home.
Thanks for the reply.

What about excluding commercial breeders / profitiers? Some pros for those not making money?

Dogs needing homes is a big issue in the dog world - which I feel eliminating commercial breeders (often termed puppy mills here) would greatly reduce this problem.
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Gnasher
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02-02-2018, 08:52 AM
I'm not the best person really to answer because I am assuming you are talking about the breeding of pedigree dogs, and I am on the whole very anti because of the ridiculously strict and stupid breed standards that are insisted upon for each individual breed. There are a few exceptions - collies notably - but when you look at the cripple that the GSD has become, compared to what the original stud dog Hektor looked like, my heart bleeds for one of my most favourite dogs.

That is slightly off piste but because most breeders in and interbreed to get a certain look, I would never buy a pedigree dog. I will stick to my wolfy types - yes, I would buy a puppy from a reputable source, but only from one who I knew bred responsibly.
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Bulldogs4Life
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02-02-2018, 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I'm not the best person really to answer because I am assuming you are talking about the breeding of pedigree dogs, and I am on the whole very anti because of the ridiculously strict and stupid breed standards that are insisted upon for each individual breed. There are a few exceptions - collies notably - but when you look at the cripple that the GSD has become, compared to what the original stud dog Hektor looked like, my heart bleeds for one of my most favourite dogs.

That is slightly off piste but because most breeders in and interbreed to get a certain look, I would never buy a pedigree dog. I will stick to my wolfy types - yes, I would buy a puppy from a reputable source, but only from one who I knew bred responsibly.
I'm talking about breeding in general. You can share ideas on any of it, not just one specific part of it.

I personally prefer a dog with a known pedigree, generally the only way to really research to know what you're likely to get. Pedigree and breed standards have nothing to do with each other. So I'm not sure I understand being anti pedigree. A pedigree is simply a record of the dogs ancestors. A registered dog bred to a breed standard would certainly have one that's been kept by the registry, but so would a registered dog not bred to breed standards that could be byb/pet breeder or puppy mill dog. Just as well a registered dog bred for working purpose or dog sports without any regard to breed standard has as well pedigree provided by registry. Pedigrees are also kept by some breeders who don't register their dogs and do not breed to breed standards. They can also be provided for cross breds, ect. I have the pedigree for mine and he wasn't bred to a strict stupid standard because there isn't an existing standard for such mixes. Of course, not all breed standards are detrimental either.

As far as GSDs. My friend breeds GSDs, which are not crippled, they show dogs, but also health test. The original dogs Horand and son Hektor having high rears and lacking angulation, even looking sway back at times isn't good structure. How is that any better than some modern GSDs, yes they look different because they have different structure problems, but people should strive to better a breed not keep breeding the same weak rear end dog. Going to the opposite extreme of over angulation that some breeders have today is not good either. You can always get DDR or Eaat German lines. I don't understand exception for collies? There is good or bad in most breeds, here a double merle Collie has sired many show winners and continued double merles breedings being done (which leads to blind / deaf dog). The dogs are awarded top show honors. Some of these dogs also have Collie Eye Anomaly or are carriers being bred to other carriers Also doing close inbreeding if the parents are not checked it increases the chance of breeding two carriers together.

If you go to a rescue / shelter thats one thing, your providing a homeless dog a home, but if you buy a dog without a pedigree your unable to know if the dog is inbred and to what degree or what the health and temperament of the ancestors were.

I don't believe when people interbreed they are going for a certain look, because crosses are unpredictable in looks very often. Most interbreed are doing it to make puppies they can say are healthier than pure breeds, cross with poodle or similar to claim hypo allergenic and also to sell with cute names to make money.
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Trouble
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02-02-2018, 11:53 AM
I don't understand being anti pedigree either tbh, but each to their own. I buy pedigrees because I want to know what my dog will look like and what kind of temperament it will have. I research breeders before purchase and would never buy from a commercial enterprise. All the breeders I have dealt with can quote you chapter and verse on their dogs and clearly love their dogs deeply. Would I ever breed ? No I'll leave that to the experts and that's partly what I'm paying for, their expertise.
Having said that not all my dogs have come from breeders, Diesel my staffie has a fine pedigree but was originally purchased by my eldest son and I took him on at 13 weeks. Frankie is a terrier mix so has no pedigree, I took him on at 20 weeks as he was already showing aggression to the resident dog. Tucson and Phoenix both have fab pedigrees, came as puppies from excellent breeders who were working hard to eliminate health issues within Pugs. Teddy Pug came at 7 months from his previous owner who couldn't cope with him he has a fine pedigree. Ruby was two when she arrived another pedigree pug, her owner had died. Dexy pug was 9 months had issues, has a pedigree, he's now a very loving dog.
So having pedigrees or rescuing is total nonsense as you can obviously do both. Not all breeders make money from breeding although tbh I hope they do but the good ones are breeding to further their lines, keep a dog for themselves etc and take all the risks involved in breeding, something I wouldn't be prepared to do.
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Gnasher
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02-02-2018, 12:23 PM
It's just me ... the bee in my bonnet. The person I have in mind to purchase my next dog from is 100 trustworthy and any dog I buy from them I will have his ancestry going back.

Nothing anyone can say will turn me on this one - I don't WANT to know what my dog will look like - how boring is that? Like buying a pair of shoes to match your handbag!! Temperament-wise - aside from health issues - but pure temperament, again I do not believe there are any nasty dogs, only nasty owners who do not know how to treat their chosen breed by catering to the needs for which it was bred. My Ben is a perfect example - nasty, vicious git, unpredictable, spoiled, abused and had learned to get his own way with violence. He did not know that we had learned our trade at the hands of the Master - his father Hal - who I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever could have been a nasty git had he been allowed to be.

Ben learned pretty quickly that 1. we we not afraid of him and 2. we understood him, and knew what to ignore, what to praise and what to condemn. This is how a nasty dog is made into a good dog - nothing or very little to do with the lines IMO.

Sorry, I have taken the thread off track but it is a subject I believe so passionately about
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Gnasher
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02-02-2018, 12:28 PM
And SO disagree about GSD's ... poor, crippled, roach-backed, fallen haunched cripples - obviously there are exceptions but everyone i have known over the years with GSD's have had huge health issues. I have in mind next door's Ben at the age of 6 was crippled with fallen haunches and could not jump into the back of their Saab. My Ben, aged 14 or 15, can't remember exactly, can still jump into the back of the Discovery with the suspension set up high - after the walk, we do have to lower it for him but he can still jump in with ease.

Poor GSDs
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brenda1
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02-02-2018, 03:09 PM
I'm sorry just had to jump in and say all the shepherds I have had in my life have been perfect dogs. So have my collies. Don't believe in breeding for breedings sake but to further good healthy dogs. Not a lover of cross breeding.
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Gnasher
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02-02-2018, 03:25 PM
Thats good Brenda. There is 1 that looks pretty healthy here in our village ... but he is the only I can think of.
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