There is no need to give the alternative time. It's, for the most part, based on false ideas. There is the wrong-headed belief that alternative ideas need to be given equal time. Well, crap is crap.

A recent article in the Guardian also makes this point. Some ideas do not deserve to be discussed along science. Millan and his dominance/alpha, be-the-leader schlock should not be given time along a more evidence based approach to training.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...hange-sceptics

I am going to stick my neck out here---I know EXACTLY what the OP means about the purely positive thing.

There are times when a kissy kissy noise simply doesn't hack it----times when a dog/pup is going to 'snipe' at other dogs especially. It really gets me cross when the pup is not corrected for the behaviour and the owner ends up with a dog whose area of supposed control gets bigger and bigger and they then have a problem. Personal space is one thing but a 50 yd exclusion area is quite another!

I have lots of dogs in and out and if unacceptable behaviour happens they are told it is unacceptable. TBF it is rare. I have had the odd dog stand by me and repel the rest----that is not on. Nor is big serious arguing over things on the floor. Nor is beating other dogs up.

Benj is bullying Pippin a bit----difficult to stop but not imposible but I certainly have to raise my voice.

I haven't had a real handbag session for ages (years) but if it does happen I will stop in any way I can. In the past I have been physical in such situations now I am probably tighter and jump more on smaller things----maybe that makes for a more secure group.

I think this thread is important and relevant but I also think that for a huge majority of dogs and situations the kissy kissy works and does less damage than a badly timed and harsh correction would.

rune

I have just returned to this thread... I believe a lot of the confusion has stemed from the way I have worded this particular post..Therefore I will make some clarification:

Please bear with me as I am also still learning how to use "quotes"



I'm sorry if I have not been clear in my posts, As a previous poster has already mentioned it is sometimes difficult to express in the right words as so many terms and phrases are now very emotive. This has certainly made me think about some of the words I use and have used for many years as I see how easily I can be judged and misunderstood

Again, though, I think you are talking about emergency situations for the most part. The situation that has already escalated to a point where an unprepared (as in not trained sufficiently) dog is reacting in a way that is dangerous.

For training itself, I really can't see the need for physical corrections/manipulation.

When young, my dog was playing retrieve with his ball. I'd thrown the ball, he'd gone out for it, turned and was on his way back. A track bike shot out of bushes to the side of us. I shouted a very loud 'down' and gave a very exaggerated hand signal and he dropped like a stone.

The tone/volume of the command conveyed the fact that it was an emergency as it is reserved specifically for such situations (in fact, I think this was the first time he'd heard it and has heard it very rarely since).

The point is, this is very different to how he was trained to 'down' - in fact at that point he had had only basic training which hadn't included distance commands. The fact that the tone of the given command had changed as well as my body language quite possibly shocked him into immediate compliance even though he was mid-way through an exciting exercise.

Emergency situations are exactly that - emergencies. We do whatever is needed to put an end to that emergency. Training is training and there is no need to teach using physically aversive methods/shouting/pushing/pulling etc.

Ok, So now i'm trying the "multiquote" thing!!

How I get my dogs attention at a distance really depends on the situation, as I said, to me its simply about communication, if the dog is next to me I can address them verbally, physically or both (can I express again that I do not Yank, push etc) At a distance you would rely on your voice more however a dog should firstly be trained at close range until the exercise or behaviour is more reliable.

Sorry Minihaha, I missed your other question...

[QUOTE=Minihaha;2315133]WT, So if the tap is out of sight of the dog and possibly the vegetable patch too, how do you know when the dog is in the vegetable patch if you can't see it Do you see it in there and tell it to sit and wait then run to the tap?

This scenerio would be deliberately set up: The owner would be out of sight, watching the dog at a distance, when the dog goes on the veggie plot the owner would control the sprayer. (Set up and timing obviously critical.)

Quote from Brierley:
For training itself, I really can't see the need for physical corrections/manipulation.

I would agree on this, when doing basic training I use "shaping" (dog following a treat or toy to achieve positions such as "sit", "Down" etc) However once a dog has learned this I see no problem in using my hands to guide or reposition them if they need a gentle reminder.

If it is taught so it is an automatic reflex then it does, it actually breaks tru a full on freak out reaction and causes the dog to whip round to you before they have thought about it

But yup when a serious handbag sesh happens between two dogs or an emergency happens that you havent trained for then you have to deal with that situation
It isnt training tho - you deal with the situation - and then you train for it afterwords

It is a great bug bear for me to see people whos dogs gave all the calming signs and warning signals they could to another dog, then finally the dog tells the other dog off more physically, this then starts a fight so the owner drags their dog off and begins telling them off for starting a fight

That is a big problem I have with punishment is us humans get angry too easily and punish without thinking if it is fair, well timed, and to the right level

I have had a couple of trainers try and use their hands to put my dogs in a sit or a down - my dogs just look confused because I have never done that - and they dont go into a sit or a down because they dont know what is being asked

If they need a gentle reminder I use my hand signal, if they need more then I go back to luring, then hand signal then cue alone guess its just cos I have never taught hands on so it dosent actually make any sense to me to use it at any point - wasnt a deliberate choice or anything I never knew about hands on training

Maybe that is it - I don't know. I asked at work last night and there are some dogs who bin raid which I had never known about, but the majority don't. Then I asked why they had not raised this as an issue, they said that they had resolved it themselves as the solution was so obvious.

The answers on the bin raiding thread are helpfull as a numbers thing, but possibly not reflective of the dog owning population in general.

I am genuinely fascinated that so many people have this problem and will henceforth include it in my public talks on avoiding problems - Thank you all for bringing it to my attention.