Yes that was my thought too. Bit like learning to drive on a simulator then being chucked out onto the roads!

But didn't want to get into that as I don't train dogs for a living and have only ever attended formal dog training classes in large indoor halls (but where lots of other people and dogs were)

However OP did post originally with their rant about training in public places saying ... any advice is welcome.....

My advice (if they don't want members of the public around behaving as members of the public are wont to do) was to find somewhere free of members of the public.

Obviously the comment that any advice is welcome only applies to advice they wanted to hear. Mine didn't fall into that category apparently.

Sorry if there has been any confusion here...the thread was meant as just a general rant and I think I have made reference to more than one situation and indeed more than one dog...

The incident at the cafe was a long time ago now but Florence is exactly right, this particular dog had already had a number of controlled sessions to build up to working in this environment and in fact we had already done some training in similar locations. this was exactly what this dog needed and he was actually doing really well. it was just this one occasion where despite my best efforts the cafe owner was really not very helpful to us, unfourtunetly this does sometimes happen and you just have to make the best of it...or simply move on and train someplace else.

If my memory serves me well I think we went to the nearby park after this and sat on a bench, we had lots of people and dogs go by and the dog was fine, I am glad that I decided to move us away and set up somewhere else where this dog could continue to have success instead of pushing him over threshold.

The dog progressed nicely through his training and I'm sure if the owner ever took him back to that cafe now he wouldn't care less for the waiter "woofing" at him!

Anyway, Thankfully training in public places is mostly good and often very productive. I surpose if we never encountered situations like this then it wouldn't really represent "real life " eh?

Well as you ask,
Everything that happens is a result of causes and conditions and those causes and conditions also had causes and conditions and so on all the way back to the big bang. That's not to say that everything's predictable as the number of causes and conditions that need to come into effect for any individual event to occur are to vast.

I strongly suspect that free will is indeed an illusion.

apologies for going of topic but I really wanted to answer question as I have a passion for this subject, please forgive me

What I believe in is CHOICES and the choices you make or the road you take at any given time will influence everything that happens after that.

I know not everyone on earth is free to choose what they want to do but most people I know who proclaim to 'have no choice' about what they do are in fact 'choosing' the path they think will be the easiest one or just afraid to choose the 'unknown' one - even if that 'choice' is to do nothing.

I know I can sit and trace back where I am right now to a simple choice made, say, 30 odd years ago and the events and people I met that led on from that.

Hi waggytail I think what Tang meant and what Isaid earlier , as the trainer you are the controller of the environment . Thus its not about trying to reign back the cafe owner after he has started its about stopping him before he begins . Thus as paying customer Iwould have said from the of I want to be your customer but only if guarantee you will ignore my dog no matter what then would have explai what. I'm. doing. As people behave like people so I would have already figured that someone in this public place would interject its most likly to be my waiter. so in situation Ican't see any annoyance at the cafe owner just myself for my error to my client

Absolutely, the idea of free will being an illusion is quite an in-depth philosophical theory. It's not really how one should be seeing life in general and it could give people the wrong idea like, it doesn't matter what they do. I much prefer to think "how I act now, effects what happens next (karma). So I do agree with you.

I like this one:
J P Sartre thought that far from being determined, people are so free it terrifies them. They usually can't stand it, so they make up stories about how they are determined and have no free will ...