Claire ~ I don't think TC is anything to do with AP & is basically studying hard to be a "good" dog trainer. I think the spray collar was probably a "last resort, at my wits end" kinda thing. And TC's profile very sadly talks about the loss of the puppy because of auto-immune problems ~ so perhaps we shouldn't jump the gun?

I understand where the "if punishment is going to work, it has to be initially severe" comes from ~ it's in Karen Pryor's book where she uses the analogy of an illegally parked car exploding to deter illegal parking

But this is the trouble with using OC princples alone to sort out behaviour problems ~ it's not the whole picture & it fails to take into account the dog's history, temperament, innate behaviours & prior learning experiences. As you say, the fallout from using harsh punishment on sensitive animals with "issues" can have a huge detrimental effect ~ but, unfortunately, in OC theory, for punishment to work it has to fit the "crime", be immediate & contiguous to the behaviour you want to stop & be initially severe so that it stops immediately. The reality is that harsh punishment doesn't just stop the unwanted behaviour, it can stop (or start) lots of other behaviours too & completely fails to take into account the dog's welfare!

I am sorry if we cant discuss the science of punishment. You cant discuss rewards without discussing punishment. Surely? It's Operant Conditioning.

I dont know Adam from Adam!

And yes, spray collars often have different levels.

I don't like these pieces of equipment but I have gone out and investigated them. For example, I don't feel I can comment on something like a Prong Collar without seeing one for myself. It doesn't mean I agree with everything. Life isn't always dog biscuits and I truly hope this forum doesn't ban the discussion of punishment and aversives.

See my post above ~ no-one's suggesting that use of punishment & aversives can't be discussed, but mentioning the use of certain inhumane devices in the context of dog training must now be limited to threads where the names of these devices are clearly in the thread titles.

I assume that you will also have studied classical conditioning & other forms of learning, ethology, the physiology of behaviour and animal welfare on your courses as well ~ so you are aware that OC principles are only a small part of the bigger picture.

And I'm very sorry that your pup is no longer with you

I agree. I think sometimes if it is a last resort and a handler has gone through the other options, then we can't keep saying, 'manage the situation'. The dog ends up in the kennels.
I am just trying to explore every option. To discuss every option has to be a healthy thing.

Yes of course discussion is a good thing, every day should be a schoolday

But one of the most interesting things I was told when I was asking round about this problem with Ben is
- its natural - some dogs just do
He hasnt totaly grown out of it - but I just kind of ignore it now as something gross he does that dosent do him any harm, I have made sure he leaves horse poo tho because he is part collie that could cause him problems - I just ask him to leave it and call him too me - if needed put him in a heel

Far more important I would love to know how to stop Mia rolling in cowpats when I have a long drive home with a dripping stinky dog

Thanks.
I think you get where I'm coming from. I only picked up on a comment about the first punishment and gave an example. I was then told I don't like dogs much.

Actually you don't know the lightest level won't work, unless you try it first...




EDIT

Just read some of the last few posts - so sorry to hear about your puppy.
All best wishes.

If you punish a dog to the point it shuts down then you've gone way overboard with the punishment. All it's learning is that what happens is so horrendous its only way of coping is to switch off entirely.

If you know your dog then it IS possible to have a clue whether or not the lowest level would work. I know without ever having tried an ecollar that the lowest setting would NOT stop Rupert chasing sheep, he wouldn't even notice it if there were sheep around. A punishment needs to be harsh enough that the dog REALLY doesn't want it to happen again but not so harsh that it shuts the dog down. Keep upping the punishment a bit at a time just teaches the dog to work through it or ignore it. It's hard to judge exactly how harsh you have to be and I'd err on the side of caution if I used punishment but if you know your dog you tend to know what's going to freak them out and what they won't bat an eyelid at.

My last two were trained using choke chains and the trainer would tell us off for "nagging" our dogs with multiple ineffective "corrections" rather than one strong one that got the point across and stopped the behaviour you didn't want. It made sense to me because I always ignored my mums nagging or shouting but if my dad so much as looked at me a certain way I knew I was in big trouble.

Just to add, I do not use choke chains or any other type of physical punishment now and haven't done for the past 7 years.

[QUOTE=Ben Mcfuzzylugs;2171410]Yes of course discussion is a good thing, every day should be a schoolday

But one of the most interesting things I was told when I was asking round about this problem with Ben is
- its natural - some dogs just do
He hasnt totaly grown out of it - but I just kind of ignore it now as something gross he does that dosent do him any harm, I have made sure he leaves horse poo tho because he is part collie that could cause him problems - I just ask him to leave it and call him too me - if needed put him in a heel

Far more important I would love to know how to stop Mia rolling in cowpats when I have a long drive home with a dripping stinky dog [/QUOTE]

I don't know if it would help & it's not foolproof, but a couple of friends have the same problem & they've found that if you're quick, you can tell from the sniffing & quick drop of the shoulder that they're about to roll. If you can catch them before the shoulder drops & make a big "yippee" sort of noise & start running excitedly in the other direction, you can overshadow the "reward" of rolling in poo! It does mean that you can't care if anyone thinks you are a mad cow yourself though

One of my friend's dogs has rolled in a dead & rotting badger carcass ~ that was absolutely gross & she was nearly sick just on the short drive home