Exactly. The problem with the e-collar is that people get them and use them like a TV remote; just press the buttons without thinking too hard. If a dog meets an electric fence they will learn not to go near it because the shock comes when they touch it; not 30 seconds after or a minute before as some idiot fumbles on the remote. I am sure that in skilled hands it can be made to work but in 'average' hand I am convinced it must be quite seriously detrimental.

Yes, I came across the site about 8 years ago and remember reading about his 1-10 levels of collar correction (almost made me ill to read it, and if I recall it also related to prong collars and shock collars). Also a dog whose owner wrote in for advice, it was an Aussie sheepdog. The owner was dominating it with if I recall an alpha roll and pinning, after some small misdemeanour and asked what to do as the dog was growling at him. In fact it seemed to me more like a submissive grin but Frawley, lacking knowledge of any such thing I presume, suggested the owner "give him hell" with severe collar corrections. Can you imagine a dog asking for punishment to stop and the owner administering more, on the sayso of this person? *shudder*

Muttzrule, I understand the US is different regarding dog training (as I understand it, a person can do pretty much anything as long as it's in the guise of dog training) but I don't really understand the law? Do you know anything about it in reference to dog training at all?

Wys
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muttzrule
agree with most of what you are saying, but there are always alternatives to punishment
for snakes why not teach an alternative behaviour like pointing it for you, sitting or lieing down? got to be better than causing the dog to think seeing a snake is going to cause pain

The fact that sheep are everywhere is all the more reason to train a dog to ignore them. You wouldn't just strap an e-collar on and zap the dog when it bolts (for a start you wouldn't know why it is bolting if you can't see the sheep yourself). As I understand it e-collar trainers have structured sessions to teach a dog to avoid sheep before letting a dog have a normal walk off lead. By the time it is off lead it knows to avoid them.

As I said, the lady you suggested, if her methods are kind and work, is far far preferable to the e-collar. But the fact is that you don't have to buy a collar to use one, and there are far more people spread out around the country who know how to use one. Visitng the lady would involve much time of work, a luxury that not everyone can afford. Now as for the pet owner who buys a collar and uses it without any guidance - well that is unacceptable in my view also.

When dealing with animals as dangerous as snakes you want the dog to give them as wide a berth as possible and they are not going to do that if it doesn't think it is dangerous. If you teach it a behaviour such as sitting or pointing it out it might start to seek them out just so it can do this behaviour and get rewarded for it. Also it might sit too close and get bit.

See my thread of yesterday:
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=106846

I think that there is some validity in this idea. I have found it difficult to impress upon this dog the danger of snakes- maybe a shock when he got near it could have prevented his severe pain and risk of death that he experienced. Unfortunately I am not sure if he has associated his condition with the snake as he became ill a while AFTER the snake was gone...

When dealing with copperheads and rattlers you cant take any risks either.

I don't like e-collars but some professionals have told me they have their place, seldom used, with working dogs; this shouldn't be confused with Ed Frawley and 'Leerburg' site. I think any decent person with any sense would soon get to see that its not a place to look for advice.

Wolfdogowner - I missed that thread - that really must have been a worry

I agree totaly that you dont want to take any chances with snakes
Skilaki I understand what you are saying that you dont want dogs to seek out snakes - but if I worry the opposite - dogs can attack what makes them scared - Mia has a scrappy doo attitude and if she was expecting something nasty when she seen something she would just try and get in and attack it before it got a chance
What about a different behaviour then - how about you train the dog to return to you when it sees a snake - and then lie down in the direction of it so you can go and investigate??

In all honesty, if people can't be bothered to go and train their dog properly,rather than resorting to inflicting pain(yes I've felt one before we do that one ) then they shouldn't have the dog. If the dog is that much of a problem around sheep...rehome into an urban environment where it will be happier and less stressed. There are so many better options available than shocking a dog.

You could teach a dog to return to you and point you in the direction of the snake I suppose, but that is a pretty complex behaviour and could take time to teach - if you have not choice but to walk in a snake infested area then I guess a quick solution is necessary and in this case the e-collar in my opinion is the lesser of two evils by far.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one I don't think that it is a matter of not being bothered to train a dog properly if done correctly.

I also think that a using an ecollar correctly in this situation to resolve the sheep worrying is far preferable to having to rehome the dog to a different environment. The upset to the dog at losing its home and having to adjust to a new family (with the risk that the dog may be passed on again) when it already has a secure and loving home will cause much more distress and upset to the dog than a session or two with an ecollar with a person competent in using the collar.

I know of a behaviourist who is an ex police dog instructor of 25 years experience plus a top behaviourist who would disagree with that ...

He works in Cumbria and has seen more problems caused with use of ecollars than not.

He picks up the pieces...

Wys
x

So....you can inflict pain on a dog to stop it sheep chasing..but probably give it other problems as a direct result, or you can use a long line on the dog, or you can take the dog to someone like I suggested, or rehpme the dog into an equally loving home in an urban environment.
There are options...I would say better options, than using an ecollar, none of the other options are painful for a start.