Have to say I think I disagree with the notion that animals cannot feel love
As humans we often make the mistake of humanising animals
But we have also been v guilty of making us over superior
only humans use tools - oh wait some apes - well they are close to us so thats OK - oh wait some BIRDS use tools - we were wrong its not just humans that use tools

I dont believe love is some kinda magical higher emotion that has just appeared in humans - like all things it has evolved through the animal kingdom because it is usefull for the survival of the species
we love our children because it is the natural thing to do - it ensures that we look after them
We love our partner because with natural selection young brought up to 2 parents faired better and people were more likely to stay together if there was a reason

So why would love just arrive fully formed in us?? when all other things have evolved - meaning that other things animals have but at different levels

a mother of most animals loves its young - you can tell that because there are times when the chemistry mucks up and they dont care for their young

Also at the moment in time I dont think boffins can prove to me if my b/f loves me or not - I will just have to take his word for it
We only know love exists in humans if we have been lucky enough to feel it
so how can we say what animals do or dont feel if we dont even know what we feel?




Oh Also

cant rem who said it but sorry if you thought I was being nasty saying I cant understand how anyone who loves dogs can watch CM and think its cool (or whatever I said)
I honestly didnt mean it nastely I ment I dont understand it - by that I really DO want to understand where people are comming from
Believe it or not I am not trying to fight - I have put across my point of view - it makes total sense to me - I know there are people here who really love dogs too but also love CM - I am trying to understand where they are comming from - confused not nasty

CM doesnt agree with humanising dogs he says exactly what u just said strange you both think the same after all
but I am not CM neither do i think we should humanise dogs
love is an emotion,and no one knows how animals feel yes what they DO is based on instinct as is their behavior and so is human behavior instinctual to an extent Ie babies will suckle then they grow up and they are obedience trained for exactly the same reasons we train a dog,they are taught to use the toilet(house trained) dogs feel pain,dog feel sadness we attribute these emotions to dog so what makes you think they cant love,just because they live in the now.?
Ive had a few boyfriends that I loved at that moment and the next day I forgot their name
so as ive said in 2 previous posts prove it,saying the same load of dooda in every post isnt going to make a believer out of me.
And because they go back to their owners even if abused just makes them even more like humans ever heard of battered wife syndrome,why does she keep going back because she LOVES him.

Thank you Colliemad and Patch for the links

I am fond of Jindos. Proud, handsome,independent spitz dogs with spirit, exceptional hunters.

At the beginning of the first clip the owner said they had consulted a behaviourist who had alpha-rolled the dog. If this was done in their home his behaviour at being handled there could well have escalated his already aggressive response. Likewise he may have escaped from a home that maltreated him in the house or just as likely had never been socialised to kind handling as an adolescent.
Whatever the history, the dog was plainly terrified of being handled, hence his aggression in attempting to defend himself (only).

Other points briefly:CM was lucky not to be mauled... The dog would have been less scared if he could have been on a carpeted surface... CM patted the dog on the head, the dog hated it...The dog was totally 'zoned out' and disengaged after the roll-overs.

The only redeeming points were at the end and the owners demonstrated a sit, lie and roll over, without too much force, but the dog looked miserable and broken.

Poor dog, there is only one place for that sort of demo and its the vet's surgery to administer life-saving treatment. In all other respects its macho and cruel, full stop.

Mary

OK, I give up guys. I accept all of the following:-

1. Despite the fact that I have owned dogs for 40 years, of all types, sizes, breeds, some lovely, some not so lovely and some downright horrible, and despite the fact that my last dog was an extremely difficult alpha male and would most probably in inexperienced hands been well on the way to being kept on the lead permanently, I know absolutely nothing about dogs.

2. Cesar ALWAYS advocates the use of prong collars and choke chains, despite the fact that he states he dislikes these tools and only uses them if the owners have been using them.

3. Cesar has not saved several dogs from Death Row, despite the fact that several vets and dog trainers have stated this on the shows.

4. Cesar is SO cruel, his technqiues cause learned helplessness, flooding, and goodness knows what else. Despite all this, many of his human clients are rich, and sometimes famous, and live in the States. One assumes they could afford to use the best, but they choose to use Cesar who apparently is absolutely not the ticket at all. Despite this fact his methods work, but no, according to all the Gurus on this site whose word is law and must be obeyed, his methods don't work at all, it is all a myth, a sham. How odd though that so many famous people swear by him, I just cannot understand this at all

5. Last, but not least, I must remember that myself and many others on this site are not allowed an opinion at all, or at least we are, but only if it happens to coincide with The Gurus.

Incidentally, this afternoon, I walked my rescue dog ... him of only 6 weeks or so of being "Cesar'ed ... off leash past a mass of squawking, panicking chickens on the set aside behind our house. He looked several times, but bless him, he never chased them, and they were going bananas. He stayed glued to my side. How on earth did I achieve this using Cesar's cruel methods, Hallelujah Lord Be Praised, it is a miracle indeed !!

He has a huge prey drive, higher even than my last dog. But his behaviour was exemplary.

I am hugely proud of my dog, he is a Star ... thanks to Cesar.

I did`nt say you do, I have`nt seen you working with a dog so I would`nt presume to suggest it But CM does use force, and psychological warfare

In his perception he needed to defend himself.

No, that`s not why, its because their self belief is usually so low that they dare not leave and/or can`t perceive of being without the abuser because the abuser has made them so dependant. Been there, done that - and no I did`nt love him, I despised him, but was too damned scared, demoralised and destroyed to do anything about it, [ leaving iow ], for far too long. And like an abused dog, yes I was desperate for a kind word or to just not be beaten for a whole day so I tried everything I could to be `good`, just like an abused dog is dependant and tries desperately to please so that they don`t get another beating.

Fantastic, really well done. I am truley happy that you are proud of your dog - and you should be proud of the work you have put into training him
But it was you doing the training not CM - you picked what methods to use when to impliment them - CM would have done it slightly different - everyone does things differently
It was down to the work of you and your dog and the bond you have

This is the statement that I think is a load of b......s, No dog love there owner's In your opinion.
Can you explain if all the see as you as the provider of food, and companionship why when I tried to rehome a bitch of 7 year's because I thought she would be much happier in a home envoirment than a kennel, did she go from being a healthy strong dog, to a bag of bones in 4 week's despite going to a home of a friend and with the dog she used to live with?
If all we are, are food and compainionship, she had this at the new home, and warmth and a rug by the fire, and children to play with.?
Also why do dog's bother coming to human's for stroking and playing when they are getting food.?

Scientist's used to say animal's don't feel.

been shopping back now. what breed was you dog patch

I think this comes down to the definition of love.. notoriously difficult! I believe dogs share affection with us.. but they don't have an awareness of self as we do.. and Plato described dogs as "lovers of learning".. and I think this is quite apt.. I'll anthropomorphisise 'til I'm blue in the face.. but it doesn't mean that dogs necessarily feel love (whatever it is) in the same way that we do, much as it is convenient, and nice for us to think that they do..