Mishflynn: you said :

Its not just having CH in the ped is it? anyone of those CH could carry faults & still be CH, If you are unsure/unknowledgeable about a breeds lines goddness knows what you could double up on/ introduce.

I couldn't agree more !! But I was told (or rather asked) to breed my bitch by the GSP people in my area !! I knew and know absolutely nothing about the show dog scene, and frankly do not like it, and did not like it then. Just because a dog is a show champion, this does not mean he or she is a healthy specimen ! But the point I was trying to make, is that just because a dog is a rescue, it does not mean that it is somehow a poor specimen, sick, carrying genetic diseases or whatever. The point I was trying to make was that the GSP I rescued was probably of show champion quality, and had a pedigree stuffed full of famous GSP's.

I took a very dim view of the high handedness of one or two people trying to insinuate that my Lizzie was unfit for breeding just because she was a rescue. This is clearly a gross generalisation, and unintelligent to say the least.

I'm off to London now, back late tonight. Have a great day one and all.:smt039

mse2: I am against unnecessary castration, purely and simply because I don't like lopping bits off my dogs unneccessarily. I do not like docking, dew claw removal, ear pinning, or other cosmetic procedures. Routine castration I cannot understand. If you want a male dog, you buy a male puppy. Why then would you want to go and remove his maleness? I tend to have male dogs because I prefer the male character. Must be mad, but there you are !

thanks Gnasher, though we will never agree on this!

Nellie was afterall very obedient in all aspects of life,apart from her little problem , & this wasnt her being naughty it was just who she was that i hadnt stopped when i could.

I do believe you need to be fair with dogs, dogs learn by repetition , i dont believe in suddenly changing the rules. You cant for example let a dog on your bed for 6 years & then say no.

Successful dog training in my eyes/p.o.v is based on consistant methods, operant conditioning & above all fairness.

Esp a breed like Collies who do fixate,obess & repeat. This is afterall what they (collies) are bred to do!

& from my own experince dogs do understand "fairness", maybe not in the same way as we do, but ive seen dogs that have been treated "unfairly" in certain situations & they arent confident in what they do in those situations.

Given the choice & understanding dogs want to please us, Nell thought her barking was ok because i never explained properally that it wasnt, they dont want to be naughty. If dogs are naughty its the owners failings thats at fault not the dogs.

The dogs ive seen on CM do turn into Shut down Robots at times, thats what i see,
Furthermore
Ive also seen this with trainers that do use his/similar "pack theory/alpha" methods, i just dont like the dogs that you get from it, that i have seen first hand, Its not how i want my dogs to be. I really dislike the results.

I think he's really good, he makes real sense an dnot once have i seen him bully a dog. He does well with the owners too, i'd lose patience with some of them!

Are you saying there is someone else of the same initial, same husband with same qualifications, also owned a Husky cross of the same age as Hal at the same time and which was bred to a bitch of a breed but the pups sold under another breed name because the owner of the dam `was`nt about to admit what they really were`, and that the `other person` just happened to own the same rescue`d pointer as you which she as well as you bred from, and whom used the exact same posting stye as you down to even the same lines as you use, plus exact same stuff about BARF and omnivores, and mono dogs etc ?

Just trying to get the facts. As for being `personal`, you have done a fair bit of that yourself, not just to me but to other members so if you want to question mine or anyone else`s behaviour toward you, [ and not just here...] have a think about why you get the reactions that you do, [ which may or may not be your intent in the first place, I have`nt decided yet...].

Patch: If you want to launch a personal attack on me, please do so through the PM system.

Mishflynn: nope, don't reckon we will ... but a girl can try !!

If your dog loves and trusts you, as I am sure yours do, then absolutely you can change the rules. Your bed example is interesting and brought back happy memories. Hal would never ever ever get on the furniture, we hadn't trained him not to, he just didn't. He instinctively knew, as bottom of the heap, that he would not be allowed to. However, when he got to about 5 or so, and at last started to display just a tad more than a resemblance to being obedient, I suggested to OH that we allowed him on the bed for a cuddle at the weekends when we traditionally have a lie-in. The very first time I patted the bed and said "up", up he jumped, curled up and settled down for a cuddle. He never took liberties, he would only jump up on our bed when invited, never the sofa, or any other piece of furniture. However, gradually, I used to find him on my daughter's bed, or the spareroom bed if I had left the door open. He knew it was wrong, and as I entered the room and said "what !! " he would immediately get down and slink sheepishly out of the bedroom, only to do exactly the same thing next time I forgot to shut the door. But he would never ever get on our bed ever, except by invitation.

This behaviour was of course completely and utterly my fault, but it had to stop, so it did ... pure and simple. Despite the fact that it was so unfair, because it was me who had given him the false signals in the first place, it didn't matter, I was pack leader, or at least pack leader's wife therefore alpha female, and I wanted him to relearn, which he did. I changed the goalposts, and as a well balanced dog, bless him, he accepted it. Even if I left a bedroom door open occasionally, he would not get on any other bed other than our's, and then only by invitation. Admittedly, he was extremely intelligent, far cleverer than me, but the point I am making is that to err is human, and a well trained dog who knows his place in the pack CAN learn, relearn, and unlearn.

HOWEVER ... we never did stop him from jumping up on the furniture in the conservatory !! We had this built when Hal was about 3 or 4 years old, long before the bedroom incident. He considered therefore that the conservatory was "outside", which in a way it is because it is separate from our house, and thus normal pack rules (in his mind) didn't apply because, from a puppy, we had always allowed him to climb on fallen trees, jump up on walls etc. etc. during the course of our long walks with him.

What I would love to have known, but never tried to find out because it didn't bother me, was could I have stopped Hal jumping on the conservatory furniture if I had used CM's methods? I like to think the answer would be yes, but I guess I will never know!

Gnasher, you brought up the subjects I`m referring to, you brought them up on the forum, so I think that`s the appropriate place to discuss them :smt001

I'm intrigued........

The subjects to which you are referring Patch, have not been brought up by me on the forum.

Had you yourself on this thread not brought up breeding from a rescue`d Pointer and breeding from Hal, a crossbreed, how would we have known about them :smt017