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Dibbythedog
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22-07-2015, 07:07 AM
Originally Posted by mjfromga View Post
A child was lightly stroking his tail once when he managed to "investigate" under it, Brownie turned around like "EXCUSE ME!!" but he'd never have bitten the child. Another grabbed his testicles and asked what they were.
Just spat out my coffee!
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Gnasher
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22-07-2015, 07:07 AM
Originally Posted by mjfromga View Post
Laura is a small child, and of course she cannot be truly blamed for what she does with dogs. She was not rough with him, just annoying at times. Charlie is patient and I HIGHLY doubt he will bite. I'm neigh certain he won't, actually. This doesn't mean he should have to endure having a boot put on his foot when he's trying to rest

I've never been bitten by a dog either thankfully. I've had vicious dogs come at me a few times when I was young, but I've always managed to not get bitten by them. It was usually because my previous dog would attack with everything he had and the dog never got close enough to me to bite me.

I expect my dog to put up with mild annoyances, but I also expect those mild annoyances to be minimal. With my last dog, I had children really do odd things to him that shouldn't have been done. Kids often do irritating things before we can stop them, which is why removing the kids is important.

A child was lightly stroking his tail once when he managed to "investigate" under it, Brownie turned around like "EXCUSE ME!!" but he'd never have bitten the child. Another grabbed his testicles and asked what they were.
I expect my dog too to put up with mild annoyances, but I actually like it when he expresses discomfort in the form of a growl or a warning. As bad as this sounds, I think that dogs should express discomfort - I remember Alfie, my grandson, treading on Ben's tail by mistake - Ben leaped up with a warning growl and removed himself to the other side of the room. I was with Alfie of course, and stopped him from following Ben, and as young as he was, explained to him that Ben wanted his space and to leave him alone. Alfie knows the rules, he accepts that when Ben says no he must leave him alone, but equally Ben knows that his reaction was undesirable but understandable. As an intelligent dog, he understands when I gently rebuke both him and Alfie.

It is such a delicate balance, but the scales must always tip in favour of the child of course. I do not believe for one moment that Ben would ever bite or even nip Alfie, but he is an extremely large powerful dog and could very easily hurt him unintentionally with his claws or just by knocking him over. The solution is to never leave the two alone together, and to teach Alfie to respect Ben's space - which he does, despite the fact he is only 20 months old. I am hoping that when Alfie is a bit bigger, they will kick a football around together - currently they play ball with a tennis ball - Alfie throws it to Ben, who mauls it around a bit and then rolls it back to Alfie, for the procedure to start all over again!
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mjfromga
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22-07-2015, 08:48 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I expect my dog too to put up with mild annoyances, but I actually like it when he expresses discomfort in the form of a growl or a warning. As bad as this sounds, I think that dogs should express discomfort - I remember Alfie, my grandson, treading on Ben's tail by mistake - Ben leaped up with a warning growl and removed himself to the other side of the room. I was with Alfie of course, and stopped him from following Ben, and as young as he was, explained to him that Ben wanted his space and to leave him alone. Alfie knows the rules, he accepts that when Ben says no he must leave him alone, but equally Ben knows that his reaction was undesirable but understandable. As an intelligent dog, he understands when I gently rebuke both him and Alfie.

It is such a delicate balance, but the scales must always tip in favour of the child of course. I do not believe for one moment that Ben would ever bite or even nip Alfie, but he is an extremely large powerful dog and could very easily hurt him unintentionally with his claws or just by knocking him over. The solution is to never leave the two alone together, and to teach Alfie to respect Ben's space - which he does, despite the fact he is only 20 months old. I am hoping that when Alfie is a bit bigger, they will kick a football around together - currently they play ball with a tennis ball - Alfie throws it to Ben, who mauls it around a bit and then rolls it back to Alfie, for the procedure to start all over again!
Good post. Of course large dogs must be made to take it easy with small children (or even small dogs). Nigredo had to learn that jumping up on kids isn't appropriate no matter how excited he gets. He turned out to be over 90 lbs of chubby and heavy pawed Labby guy, so thankfully he learned to stop doing this.

Biggest thing which some people fail so hard at - NEVER leave a dog and a child together alone under any circumstances. It's different with me because the children are not my children and they are never in my home with my dog.

As much as I love Nigredo and know that he loves kids and would never bite them or hurt them on purpose, I wouldn't put him in a home with small kids if I had to rehome him. He still jumps on us in excitement when we come home (we allow this), and little kids would probably get knocked over each time they came home from school etc.

USUALLY we move away from kids who are rough with him in parks etc., his happiness and comfort is my priority, not that of the child who is irritating him. A few parents have acted irritated when I have told their children to stop doing something. These kids are never as young as Laura here. They should know better.

One child came up to him when he was laying beside a bench with me and began playing with him. Then he kept pulling his ear. His mother was literally RIGHT THERE and heard and saw me ask him to stop (very gently saying "Don't pull his ears, that hurts") and refused to say or do anything.

When I physically (but very gently of course) grabbed his hand and forced him to stop pulling his ear and looked him in the eye and told him to stop with a more forceful tone, she acted upset. I had to have told the child 3 or 4 times and she was there and wouldn't say anything. He disobeyed me because he disobeys her. Most children stop when I ask them to.

Oh, well! I would never hurt a child, but he got the message. We have a right to be there and Nigredo didn't like that. He wasn't going to bite, but it was very annoying to him. The child didn't even ask before he began playing with Nigredo and I don't believe it was our duty to get up and leave because a brat doesn't know how to treat dogs.
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mjfromga
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22-07-2015, 08:49 AM
Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
Just spat out my coffee!
Had you been there, it would have been funnier. My dog's reaction was truly priceless. The child who grabbed his testicles was a male child as well, so it's funny how that even came about. You have those, too! And then you have the aspect of me trying to answer questions I probably should not be answering.
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Gnasher
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22-07-2015, 10:00 PM
Lol Myra!!
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Charliedadog
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23-07-2015, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Clearly Charlie is a very well balanced dog, comfortable in his own skin, knowing his place and behaving appropriately with a sweet little girl. Equally, that little girl is gentle and respectful of and with Charlie, especially bearing in mind she is so young. Clearly, the family have raised both dog and child extremely well and I take my hat off to them. It is so difficult to get the balance right with very young children and dogs - the last thing you want is to raise a child who is terrified of dogs because you flap like a mad hen every time a dog comes anywhere near. On the other hand, you want the child to learn respect and caution towards all dogs, their own included but especially of strange dogs. I think this family have achieved an excellent balance here.

Clearly, Charlie knows his place in the family pack. He respects the little girl, and even when she puts her face right into his when he is lying on the sofa and gives him a kiss, he responds appropriately by giving her a couple of licks - this was definitely no appeasement gesture or sign of discomfort, this was merely Charlie responding appropriately to actually what was an inappropriate thing for a human to do - the dog is lying on the sofa, you have issues here of elevated status both physically and mentally, in my opinion children should NEVER be allowed to expose their face in this way to another dog - it is disrespectful to the dog because you are invading their space in the most intimate way, and whereas as an adult I can and do do exactly that with my dogs, such a young child should never be allowed to do this - it is not fair to the dog, and it is not fair to the child. However, despite Charlie showing slight alarm in his eyes, he responded appropriately - top marks to Charlie on this one!

Apart from that many congratulations to the family for raising two such beautiful animals - both are enough to melt the hardest of hearts! Well done you!! x gnasher x
Thank you for that. We working everyday with Charlie and Laura to make them feel comfortable together. We know what Charlie doesn't like and we trying to explain Laura what she can and what she can't do ( I will never forget moment when she literally grab his balls and she started to pull them really hard)
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Charliedadog
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26-07-2015, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by mjfromga View Post
The dog is patient, but instead of recording the child putting shoes on his feet, yanking his ears, taking toys from under his face, and kissing/headbutting him... I'd be trying to get her to stop. Not trying to be mean, but he didn't look happy in some of those situations.

All done gently of course. I don't have small children and I don't deal with them on a regular basis, but when kids do things to my dog that I wouldn't do, I never allow it. My Nigredo would NEVER harm a child, but I don't see the point of him putting up with irritating things for the child's enjoyment.
Sometimes i just make videos for Laura so i kept camera rolling. I talk to her but i put music in editing process so you can hear that. I can't take away Laura all the time when she is around Charlie and she put some things on him, because she started to think touching a dog is something bad and she refused to play with him. I'm Trying to keep balance between two of them.
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Charliedadog
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26-07-2015, 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by mjfromga View Post
The dog is patient, but instead of recording the child putting shoes on his feet, yanking his ears, taking toys from under his face, and kissing/headbutting him... I'd be trying to get her to stop. Not trying to be mean, but he didn't look happy in some of those situations.

All done gently of course. I don't have small children and I don't deal with them on a regular basis, but when kids do things to my dog that I wouldn't do, I never allow it. My Nigredo would NEVER harm a child, but I don't see the point of him putting up with irritating things for the child's enjoyment.
Sometimes i just make videos for Laura so i kept camera rolling. I talk to her but i put music in editing process so you can't hear that. I can't take away Laura all the time when she is around Charlie and she put some things on him, because she started to think touching a dog is something bad and she refused to play with him. I'm Trying to keep balance between two of them.
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Gnasher
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27-07-2015, 11:09 AM
Hi Charliedadog - it is so difficult to get this balance. You definitely do not want Laura to be fearful of any dog, especially Charlie, but on the other hand children need to respect dogs. It is so sad when a young child starts to think that dogs are bad, it breaks my heart when some children scream with fear when a dog so much as looks at them. My advice would be to reintroduce them carefully - with supervision of course - and try to rebuild Laura's confidence.
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mjfromga
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27-07-2015, 11:51 AM
Touching a dog is fine. Pulling his ears, laying on him, etc. isn't good. There have been a few children I've come across that obviously had never been taught how to treat dogs and it was annoying. Due to Laura's age, of course she's going to do annoying things to a dog... which to some degree is acceptable because the dog needs to be able to deal with it without snapping or getting annoyed.

However, it's as you said... Charlie will have enough after a while and then Laura needs to leave him alone. The main incident was the head butting/kissing incident which you said you saw and removed her right afterwards, which is good. She's too small to understand that putting your face into a dogs face like that isn't appropriate.

The video showed a very tolerant dog and a fairly gentle child, I wasn't trying to truly bash the video, I was only hoping that Charlie doesn't have to endure the annoyances all the time. For someone without a small child, I realize it's easy for me to say that, so please don't take offense as I mean none.
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