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Fliggle
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Location: Monchengladbach, Germany
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06-06-2008, 07:47 PM
This is a tough one I think. Especially since we adopted our little bag of beans Dingo. He is given boundless amounts of exercise, his diet has been changed to try to suit him better and he's always given mental stimulation through one activity or another. Admittedly next week we are going to be taking him to a 'Doggie Dietician' I guess you could call them to see if they can work on a suitable diet for him but the majority of Dingo's issues stem from the fact he's gone so long without someone saying 'NO' to him. He's getting much better and is showing improvement every day. I've also found with him that using a combination of different techniques have worked because he's got the attention span of a goldfish so we have to vary the stimulae to keep him entertained.

Heidi

Heidi
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Dee Buzby
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06-06-2008, 08:59 PM
Hi Steve, good to get your advice. Perhaps you could help with a problem that arose tonight; we have a 14 week old Kooikerhondje who is showing all the normal Kooiker traits- sensitive, intellegent,devoted to its family and soft as mud but more indifferent to others. He's shy with other humans (has been known to growl at them) and bit wary of other dogs, altho we're going to dog school for help with socializing. Now you have the background I need to ask you what to do.He growled at me when I tried to remove a short bit of that smelly tendon stuff from his mouth. His jaws were clamped shut and he was not going to let go! .He was in his den (cage) at the time, and normally he's happy for us to practically climb in with him. We do take away his food occasionally when he's eating to get him used to accepting that we are the boss, but this latest episode has really unnerved me. Please please could you, or anyone else out there, advise me on the best way of dealing with this behaviour? I continued to remove the tendon as I was determined he wasn't going to "win", and I didn't want him to choke, so and replaced it with another, longer tendon. . but believe me, my heart was in my mouth! He was seriously miffed! Should I have smacked his nose? Or growled back? Or maybe said "no!" in a firm voice? Apparently Kooikers don't do well with tough treatment- kind and firm apparently. Help! Thank you in advance. Dee
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red collar
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06-06-2008, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Shona View Post
Did I mention a good sense of humour helps when training dogs,, come on now steve dont be so upset by it all,,
I think if I were going to use a behaviourist I'd like one with bomb-proof equanimity and the good grace to deal with being misquoted and misunderstood without throwing a hissy fit and calling names. JMHO
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MaryS
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06-06-2008, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by red collar View Post
I think if I were going to use a behaviourist I'd like one with bomb-proof equanimity and the good grace to deal with being misquoted and misunderstood without throwing a hissy fit and calling names. JMHO
Marvellous!
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hectorsmum
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06-06-2008, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Dee Buzby View Post
Hi Steve, good to get your advice. Perhaps you could help with a problem that arose tonight; we have a 14 week old Kooikerhondje who is showing all the normal Kooiker traits- sensitive, intellegent,devoted to its family and soft as mud but more indifferent to others. He's shy with other humans (has been known to growl at them) and bit wary of other dogs, altho we're going to dog school for help with socializing. Now you have the background I need to ask you what to do.He growled at me when I tried to remove a short bit of that smelly tendon stuff from his mouth. His jaws were clamped shut and he was not going to let go! .He was in his den (cage) at the time, and normally he's happy for us to practically climb in with him. We do take away his food occasionally when he's eating to get him used to accepting that we are the boss, but this latest episode has really unnerved me. Please please could you, or anyone else out there, advise me on the best way of dealing with this behaviour? I continued to remove the tendon as I was determined he wasn't going to "win", and I didn't want him to choke, so and replaced it with another, longer tendon. . but believe me, my heart was in my mouth! He was seriously miffed! Should I have smacked his nose? Or growled back? Or maybe said "no!" in a firm voice? Apparently Kooikers don't do well with tough treatment- kind and firm apparently. Help! Thank you in advance. Dee
this concerned me loads...............

dont take away his food, ever, he will defend it, put a treat in the bowl whilst he's eating and use your hands as a scoop to help him lift his food up. this way he sees your hands as a positive.

he's only a baby and unsure, You need to be confidant to show him how to behave.
at least you've started training with him. that should boost his confidence.
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hectorsmum
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06-06-2008, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by red collar View Post
I think if I were going to use a behaviourist I'd like one with bomb-proof equanimity and the good grace to deal with being misquoted and misunderstood without throwing a hissy fit and calling names. JMHO
ok,ok,ok

so he lost it for a bit. we all can and do sometimes.

give it a rest now

he should be made to feel welcome NOT berated for an opinion and emotions.
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youngstevie
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06-06-2008, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by hectorsmum View Post
this concerned me loads...............

dont take away his food, ever, he will defend it, put a treat in the bowl whilst he's eating and use your hands as a scoop to help him lift his food up. this way he sees your hands as a positive.

he's only a baby and unsure, You need to be confidant to show him how to behave.
at least you've started training with him. that should boost his confidence.
Sorta agree with hectorsmum....but I do swops.
Bruce was quiet aggressive at 8 weeks over this, and with so many children coming and going I KNEW one of the little so and so's would try to take something off him, he would fly under the dining table and then come at you like a conga eel...so I played swops....now at 7 months you can take anything from him...he;s a gent now.
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Steve Wishart
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07-06-2008, 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by Dee Buzby View Post
Hi Steve, good to get your advice. Perhaps you could help with a problem that arose tonight; we have a 14 week old Kooikerhondje who is showing all the normal Kooiker traits- sensitive, intellegent,devoted to its family and soft as mud but more indifferent to others. He's shy with other humans (has been known to growl at them) and bit wary of other dogs, altho we're going to dog school for help with socializing. Now you have the background I need to ask you what to do.He growled at me when I tried to remove a short bit of that smelly tendon stuff from his mouth. His jaws were clamped shut and he was not going to let go! .He was in his den (cage) at the time, and normally he's happy for us to practically climb in with him. We do take away his food occasionally when he's eating to get him used to accepting that we are the boss, but this latest episode has really unnerved me. Please please could you, or anyone else out there, advise me on the best way of dealing with this behaviour? I continued to remove the tendon as I was determined he wasn't going to "win", and I didn't want him to choke, so and replaced it with another, longer tendon. . but believe me, my heart was in my mouth! He was seriously miffed! Should I have smacked his nose? Or growled back? Or maybe said "no!" in a firm voice? Apparently Kooikers don't do well with tough treatment- kind and firm apparently. Help! Thank you in advance. Dee
Hey Dee,

It sounds a lot like your puppy needs vital socialising skills if even you get a bit scared of him, I suggest you get a muzzle for him before these puppy classes, just to be on the safe side.

I advise all new dog owners upon getting a puppy to be involved with everything. Take them over to parks where they can meet other dogs, not so much bringing other dogs to your house, in case he is of a dominent nature, as he won't take to them coming in uninvited by him. Also take him down your local pub to meet people as well, the more situations a puppy is exposed to, the less likely the puppy will grow into a dog that is unsure of everything, including other people and dogs.

If you taught him bite inhibition, he should be pretty comfortable with your hand in his mouth. Has he ever displayed anything at all similar previously with what he did recently?

The tendon may have even been sore for him, in which case he growled after associating you with the pain or discomfort.

I would advise that you take 10 mins time out every day to groom him, it'll get him used to you running your hands over him, obviously give him a treat whilst grooming him so he can get the idea that grooming is a good thing. He'll learn to trust you and it's also quite an empowering role for you to letting him know that you'll take good care of him/let him know that you are boss by taking the alpha dog grooming role, whichever theory you believe, they are both essentially the same one thing.

With regards to taking his bowl away, this can be dangerous and it's become synonomous with how to teach your dog that you're boss by general media, unfortunately they don't take into account that an overly dominent and aggressive dog will get very offended by this and could cause you some damage. Dogs love their food, it's like taking away cake from Vanessa Feltz, it'll only piss her off.

I would also advise that you never smack your dog on the nose, even I was taught this one as a child and sadly enough, employed it as a kid when I knew no better. It's probably the equivelent of kicking some guy in his family jewels, it's harmful for the dog and with experience, the dog will only learn to resent you for doing so, growling back is also not a good idea. A firm "no!" is better, but only if the dog knows better.

Use the power of reinforcement, give him a treat whilst he is doing a behaviour that you want to encourage, such as sticking your hands in his mouth. Scoop his food up or feed him a treat by placing it on his tongue inside his mouth after letting him have a sniff, let him eat food from your hands. Basically, everytime your hands go anywhere near him, he needs to think "Oh my, I like these hands, they give me food. Good hands", if you continue smacking him on the nose and keep taking his bowl away, he is associating negative things with hands, its possible that everytime he sees your hands he thinks "those hands cause me pain and they take my food away, I don't like those hands. Bad hands"

Give grooming a go, its a great bond between you and your dog, he gets comfortable with you touching him all over and he'll also have a much nicer coat because of it. If you believe in the pack mentality, the alpha dog grooms his pack with the thinking that he is the boss of them and he is allowed to touch them. Grooming puts you in that alpha dog role.

Try and get him to associate your hands as things of goodness, they play toys with him, they throw balls for him, they feed him, they groom him, they stroke him; not things of badness such as them hitting him and them trying to take his food away.

I'm sure many others have different opinions on the matter, so listen to other's posts and do whatever you feel comfortable with and what seems right.
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Patch
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07-06-2008, 06:09 AM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post
I don't know Evie and I know nothing of any research on raw feeding, so how was I supposed to know... ?"
Perhaps it might have been an idea to have looked into it before making statements about what you consider to be correct generic `one size fits all` feeding requirements ?
As for Evie wanting an argument, that is not her way, and though Evie certainly does`nt need anyone fighting her corner for her, you having a go at her, one of the nicest, most unassuming, and most caring people you`d be lucky to meet, that will get peoples backs up

It's also said that in a nutshell, I expected everyone here on Dogsey to not be clued up, to be honest, I had no expectations whatsoever when I posted the opening post.
Given your comment about what you were told by `someone` about the forum, oh I think perhaps you did come here with expectations and its reflected in your tone somewhat WHat a shame you have let someone else`s view colour yours before you ever typed a word here.

It was purely to help any new owners who didn't know any better and who were thinking of spashing out plenty of cash on a behaviourist who will only tell them to do one of the things I listed, apologies for taking the time to help people who don't know any better
Sorry, did`nt realise no one was able to help others until you came along, however has Dogsey coped the last few years

and upsetting all you know-it-all's
You are posting all sorts of stuff based on theories which were outdated before you were even born, you have a blinkered view to anything said by anyone who yes, does know better than you, [ many have been around the learning block also before you were born ], and you call us the `know it alls` for not accepting your every word ?
I think you need to take a step back and see how your posts come across

who had nothing better to do than to pick it apart with a fine tooth comb and pull me up on things that weren't even said and things that despite being labelled wrong, are still essentially the same thing. Again, too bloody pedantic.
Things not said means gaps, and that means people not being fully armed with information. Anyone posting suggestions for behavioural issues has a duty to give as much information as possible. But hopefully you`ll learn that when you have more experience yourself.

Evie, I stopped reading your latest post in reply to mine after the 1st quote of mine was misunderstood by you. The question mark was in general to the paragraph, it wasn't me asking for your opinion on wether or not dog's need walking for different periods, especially seeing as I said that they do in my first post.
Your first post stated "two proper 45-60 minute workouts per day. ", the only exceptions being pups, old dogs, and "dogs with short noses with difficult breathing, such as bulldogs and pugs"

But then, I suppose I did create this topic as a post for generally anybody to read and as such, every know it all
there you go again with the name calling

has posted thinking I am talking about a direct reference to their dog for some strange reason.
Of course they do ! When you write something generalised as you did, are people supposed to read it and think `ah, he means everyone else`s dog but not mine` ??


Dogs are different, dogs can't be generalised and neither can their behaviour,
Exactly ! That`s why there have been comments to make it clear that a `simple three steps` is nothing of the sort because all dogs are different


Oh and as for flooding, that has no bearing what so ever on my ability to train dogs or is it a measured opinion on my behavioural courses.
I`m sorry but the methods someone uses absolutely do have a bearing on their ability to train dogs, because the methods they use reflect how much understanding or not that trainer has of getting into a dogs psyche...
Anyone who thinks flooding is a good idea is sadly lacking in that understanding

At least I understand the term as opposed to being some bloody narrow mindedly fickled to rule it out without actually understanding everything about it.
Oh please, if we did`nt understand it, [ we presumably only having been born yesterday ], we wouldn`t be challenging it, its because we do understand that we are making sure readers are aware of the pitfalls of letting anyone do it to their dog.



Sorry to all of those who have actually taken the time to be decent members and have made an effort at making me feel welcomed,
You were welcomed, including by me, if you remember I said I did`nt like your beliefs about dogs but liked your style - it seems you have`nt been able to maintain that style for very long though- since the first time anyone said anything which disagreed with you as it goes.

sadly, it appears that too many members here are so pig-headed, deriving their own opinions on what others DON'T say (thats a first in my forum experience and I have many)
That is what sets Dogsey apart from other forums - we are not sheep, we don`t just get spoonfed stuff and swallow it without question, and yes many here have more experience than you and you don`t like it, you expect people to listen to you without question and its you who are utterly dismissive of those who are filling in the gaps which you have left wide open.

and as such, I'm not too sure if this place will allow me to achieve what I wanted to join for, to learn more. I thought that I could learn a thing or two, unfortunately, I have done so in a very condescending way and in a very misunderstood way and I'm not too sure if I wish to hang about in this place for much longer.
You say you want to learn yet anything anyone says which differs from what you believe causes you to name call and treat people like numpties.

I was warned by several members upon joining that this place had too many people who quite frankly had their heads up their own backsides,
If `several` think that then why are they still members themselves`, why would `they` stick around

I dismissed it, but now it appears that this may very well be true.
Steve, you came here rolling in like an all knowing guru type with an attitude of thinking no one here knows one end of a dog from the other,[ at least that is how your posts now make you appear ], and that you are the only one anyone should listen to - you saying people should read everything and make their own minds up does`nt really carry sincerity in conjunction with the way you put things I`m afraid, its comes over as `pfffft, if you think someone else knows better you can take a running jump`
The fact is that no-one is `all knowing`, but you need to accept that many do know more than you, have considerably more experience than you, and if you genuinely came here to learn that means listening when people explain the rights or wrongs of this or that method, not just throw other peoples long earned experience and knowledge in their faces when they take the time to discuss things with you.
I do hope if a client questions what you suggest that you don`t treat them with same contempt and knee jerking as you have treated some here

If you want to start again in a different frame of mind including more of a sense of humour and less prickliness you might find yourself getting a much better reception generally

Me, I`m going to buy a feather duster to add to the armoury, thanks to Shona and Boobah trying something I would never have thought of
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Meg
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07-06-2008, 07:20 AM
Hi Dee I won't answer your question, it wasn't requesting suggestions from members in general but may I make one observation?

You say..
we have a 14 week old Kooikerhondje who is showing all the normal Kooiker traits- sensitive, intellegent,devoted to its family and soft as mud but more indifferent to others. He's shy with other humans (has been known to growl at them) and bit wary of other dogs,
someone suggested..
It sounds a lot like your puppy needs vital socialising skills if even you get a bit scared of him, I suggest you get a muzzle for him before these puppy classes, just to be on the safe side
I have to say something here, not to be picky but I really would not use a muzzle on this puppy, you say he is shy of humans, muzzling him can make him worse .
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