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Shona
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05-06-2008, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post
As someone said, the research into food itself is still very limited from what it should be, that said, I was taught by a viable enough source and someone who I didn't have any reason to doubt, so therefore, I can only believe what I have been taught and by what I use. Unfotunately, I lack the neccessary time to research food more indepthly than I needed to know.

If you have spent that time researching this more indepthly and have facts and results to back up your theory, then please, feel free to point me to a post where you have provided facts and results to back the theory up. It's a much better way to disclose the information than just disagreeing with someone without giving enough of a discussion on the matter, all under a bloody eye rolling smilie. As such, you came across as an arrogant know-it-all who didn't have the time or the respect to actually give constructive criticism.

Evie,,,eye rolling,,,, dont see it,



I don't expect everyone to agree, but I also don't expect everyone to disagree on points that weren't really being discussed in the first place. That isn't friendly debating in my book, that's just people arguing for the hell of it.

what I will say,, since joining the forum, I have found my knowlage is far better, many members have taken on board others views & experiance, just ask patch about the whole docking thing,, I had a one way view at the start, as patch did with rescue, we both learned to take on board others views, experiance, I have had many a rumble with ramble but im a better person for it lol
If I had stuck with what I learned when I first started training dogs,,, I would still be using some very old dare I say woodhouse methods {gawd I feel old}
everyone has there views and even though its not what you were trained at uni, doesnt make them wrong
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Sarah27
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05-06-2008, 05:33 PM
Good point Shona - Evie was the one who introduced me to raw feeding and it's been the best thing I ever did for my dog. I know it's slightly off topic (well a lot off topic), but I've got so much help on this forum, there are so many kind and helpful people here. You'll learn a lot Steve, I have
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ClaireandDaisy
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05-06-2008, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post

If you have spent that time researching this more indepthly and have facts and results to back up your theory, then please, feel free to point me to a post where you have provided facts and results to back the theory up. It's a much better way to disclose the information than just disagreeing with someone without giving enough of a discussion on the matter, all under a bloody eye rolling smilie. As such, you came across as an arrogant know-it-all who didn't have the time or the respect to actually give constructive criticism.
Keep your drawers on Steve - we don`t all have to agree on here, but it`s nice to be polite. I`ll listen to anyone because I know I don`t have all the answers, and you can get help / food for thought (sorry!) in the most unexpected quarters. Even people I think are arrogant knowalls (and I don`t read that post as arrogant myself). It`s good to keep in mind however that what was intended may not be how a post comes over.
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Wozzy
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05-06-2008, 05:58 PM
Going back to the original topic, I thought it was a very well written, general post which was intended to give you a starting block if your dog is giving you problems. I appreciate the time it took Steve to write all that and probably the only thing I disagree about is Eukanuba!

There are some very experienced and knowledgable dog owners on this forum and this thread probably wont serve to help them as they are already aware of the importance of all 3 areas. However, I think for those with less knowledge, perhaps first time dog owners, it was an excellent post.
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Meg
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05-06-2008, 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post
Right, so let me get this straight, my initial post was trying to underline the importance of a good diet consisting of many different things, meats as well as vegetables. A good mentality work out in both giving the dog boundaries as well as training sessions to teach the dog more, and physical exercise needed twice a day.

And yet the discussions evolved from the topic have all been about pedantic details based on an owners own perceived ideas, not mine, such as dogs are carnivorous, not omnivorous, a dog doesn't conform to the pack mentality as that idea was de-bunked several thousand years ago (that's an exaggeration) and some dogs need more exercise than others?

No offence guys, but a lot of the 'disagreement' posts in here were based on very loose seperate arguments and were only created for arguments sake.

I never said in the initial post that they were the causes of ALL problems, just the majority that I deal with on a daily basis. I didn't mention vet exams and thus, I must have clearly overlooked that (despite thinking it was universally known enough to not warrant a mention), lol, I get condemned and judged for apparently using the Flooding technique all the time, and it just generally feels like I am having to constantly defend my views on things that weren't even mentioned in the first post, simply because some members are being extremely pedantic about some issues.

I am all for a good argument, but this has gotten a bit silly.
Hi Steve may I make a comment in reply here?
I am not sure how familiar you are with dog forums, but it seems to me to be the case that if someone posts asking for advice or opinion then you can state your opinion and that is fine .
However if you start a thread expressing your own particular views on something expect to be challenged

I sometimes get the feeling that some people when first joining a forum particularly 'professionals' (and I am not meaning you in particular) are under the misconception that the forums are full of not very well informed pet owners when nothing could be further from the truth.
There are some very knowledgeable people on Dogsey.

Take Evie for instance, I think there is very little Evie doesn't know about raw feeding , she is not being pedantic in her posts but trying to make points very clear to help those looking for information.

So take a step back and give yourself time to get to know 'forum ways ' and please don't take offense if you start a thread and are challenged.
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youngstevie
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05-06-2008, 06:55 PM
Can I say also Steve...I agree with Minihaha, and No I'm not closing ranks. I found you to be rather.....do it this way too.
Whilst I commend you on becoming a Behaviourist, I find it slightly worrying when you post things about how you solved a behaviour problem..flooding for instance.
Unfortunately, I worked with Inspectors at RSPCA for 14 years, and I met some owners, that you would think were intelligent, but due to either lack of funds or just simple stupidity there animal became a subject of cruelty.
I appreciate that you'd think well surely not, but I have been amazed how people think or things they try.
I remember a case where a cat fell into a oil tub, and after ringing round vets and finding that they couldn't afford it they tried to remove it themselves, although they didn't have the right stuff to clean with, so they used something that cleaned car engines...the cat died SCREAMING.
I'm not suggesting anyone on here would do that, but there are non member that read these posts and as I said, there will always be someone who thinks....well if it worked for him, it'll work for me. Those cases have never left me Steve....and whether you think, no-one would be that stupid, there will always be one.
As for the food issues, well I took little notice simply because the youngest dog I've had die on me was 18yrs the eldest 23yrs. So I pressume my feeding is ok.
I agree, that you have some valid points, but I feel you need to realise some people on here have had dogs for 50 years...that experience as well, and some of us are not as young as you....I for one, with 46 yrs experience
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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05-06-2008, 07:24 PM
For everyone asking proofs - I cant totaly give that but I used this site
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
to work out the nutrient content in many of the foods I am feeding raw and I compared that to the RDA's that pet food companies use for dogs
I found that what I am feeding meets or exceeds the RDA's
Although that site is not totaly comprehensive -- some foods dont have all vitamins listed and it is american so I had to be inventive with the cuts of meat
also I compared it to the premium dry food I was feeding and I am exceeding the nutrient content there too

dunno how that goes with proof but it was as good as I could get
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Pita
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05-06-2008, 07:28 PM
Think experience does suggest it is best to wait for someone to ask for help although I am sure the OP meant well and his advice may well be of help. On the other hand it is always best to hear everybodies ideas and theories because as owners we are the ones who will decide after due consideration what is best for us and our dogs. For every question there will be a multitude of answers, none will be wrong but not all will suit every reader
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Jackie
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05-06-2008, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post
Right, seems to be some confusion here.

Dogs need minerals and vitamins as part of a healthy diet.

Minerals

Calcium; found in bones, dairy products, peas, beans and lentils

Phosphorus; found in eggs, milk, meat (inc. organs)

Magnesium; whole grains, soya, raw wheat germ, milk and fish

Potassium; foods high in whole grains, bran and yeast

Sodium and Chloride; found in almost every food

Copper; fish, liver, peas, beans and lentils again

Iodine; fish, iodised salt and eggs

Iron; meat, liver, whole grains, peas, beans, lentils and fish

Maganese; green vegatables, whole grains, seeds and eggs

Selenium; meat and cereals

Zinc; meat and bone

Vitamins

A; yellow vegetables (carotene), liver, cod liver oil, dairy products

B1 (Thiamin); meat, fish, vegetables, milk and fruit

B2 (Riboflavin); organ meat, dairy products

B3 (Niacin); meat

B5 (Pantothenic Acid);raw meat and vegetables

B7 (Biotin); beef lier, brewer's yeast, raw egg yolk

B12 and Folic Acid; organ meat

C (Ascorbic Acid);citrus fruits and vegetables

D; liver, fish oils, dairy products

E; meat, liver, vegetable oils, nuts, leafy vegetables

K; green plants and vegetables, kelp, egg yolk

All of which has been uncharasmatically ripped from a book on what to feed your dog.

I am not contesting that a dog is much more of a carnivore than a herbivore, because that would be a very stupid assumption (and wrong), but I vehemently disagree that dogs are purely 100% carnivores and not at all omnivores. Dogs can digest certain vegetables just as easily as meat and some vegetables do contain minerals or vitamins that are somewhat needed to be part of a balanced diet and cannot be found in meat alone.

@ nickyboy

I have an Animal Behaviour BSc (Hons) from Cambridge and I am currently undertaking an Adv. Diploma in Canine Behaviour Management and looking to further my studies afterwards with a Higher Certificate of Cynoloy.

I don't really buy into associations because there are far too many about, set up by somebody that charges fees just to have you join their little group. I have coped fine without them and don't plan on joining any soon.

I have been around dogs all my life, but I have been charging people for years doing this, even whilst taking the courses, so professionally, I'd say coming up almost 8 years. :)
Very commendable to achieve all this in your short 24 yrs,

Like someone else has said.... this is not a forum full of people who are uneducated in doggy behaviour/nutrition.

With age comes wisdom (sometimes) and it wont hurt for you to take a step back, and listen to other opinions.... their is a wealth of knowledge on this board.... it is what makes it a goo place to be..

You have some valid points, and they can be added to the archives of knowledge on here...

But if you except other people will have as much if not more experience in certain aspects of canine life, you will become a valued member on Dogsey
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Patch
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05-06-2008, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post

And yet the discussions evolved from the topic have all been about pedantic details based on an owners own perceived ideas, not mine,
Its the `pedantic` details which are absolutely vital, otherwise its nothing but a `one size fits all` ethos - regardless of breed traits, every dog is an individual and should be treated as one, one dog, one dogs specific needs to suit that one dog.

such as dogs are carnivorous, not omnivorous, a dog doesn't conform to the pack mentality as that idea was de-bunked several thousand years ago (that's an exaggeration)
Its a shame the de-bunking was`nt included in your coursework, if it were perhaps you would believe it like the other `one size` stuff these on-paper courses, [ which are not hands-on taught], infer

and some dogs need more exercise than others?
Of course some dogs need more exercise than others !
Even between my four BCs, [ yes four- what did you say about someone having three ? ], they have different levels of physical requirement, one being a tripod with a lactic acid problem in his remaining rear leg he simply can`t do a regimented x number of minutes at a time, his exercise is specific to what he can do on a walk to walk basis and he being a stoic so and so I have to regulate that because he would just keep going til he literally can`t stand for one more step.
All my collies are also different sizes, builds, ages, and personalities, so those aspects come into it as well.

My other two are a Lurcher, [ BC x Saluki ], who is a typical pointy build and therefore built for short bursts, not a trek
My other is a Collie x Jack Russell and she will also keep going until she drops given the chance. She is fantastically fit and incredibly fast considering her build - not from x number of minutes walk a day but because she plays tag with my Lurcher and tries to keep up with him, her physical and much of her mental fitness comes directly from doing that, if I tried to achieve her condition from just walks, well, it just would`nt happen. She gets more physical and mental exercise from ten minutes of tag with him in my agility area than she would on a two hour walk so if someone said I had to choose between one or other it would be the ten minute tag bursts every time.

No offence guys, but a lot of the 'disagreement' posts in here were based on very loose seperate arguments and were only created for arguments sake. Yet it seems that the general approach of my first post and the majority of it, despite a bit here and there, is all agreeable, yet I'm still under the impression that my view is totally wrong?
Not for arguments sake - for dogs sakes.

I never said in the initial post that they were the causes of ALL problems, just the majority that I deal with on a daily basis. I didn't mention vet exams and thus, I must have clearly overlooked that (despite thinking it was universally known enough to not warrant a mention), lol,
No its not universally well known enough to not warrant a mention, its something which sadly all too many never think of, including many behaviourists. [ Cesar Milan being one of the most prominent and worst examples of not taking it into account ].

I get condemned and judged for apparently using the Flooding technique all the time,
yes because flooding can be incredibly harmful with very permanent results - which can be fatal for a dog as they are taken off to a vet to be destroyed for not being able to cope with a situation they have been forced into, often because some behaviourist has done it without knowing enough of the dogs background, [ rescues of unknown history especially being dogs which should never be flooded because anything could trigger a severe fear response ].
Flooding is not about curing a dogs fear, its about putting them in a state of learned helplessness, they shut down, so when they don`t fight it any more its not because they are `cured` its because they can`t mentally cope with trying to fight it any more, [ or the person forcing them into situations which are too much for them ], that just hides one fear by glossing over it by creating another stronger fear.


and it just generally feels like I am having to constantly defend my views on things that weren't even mentioned in the first post,
Well, people are expected to be able to back up/expand on any claims / statements they make - its called debate and discussion


simply because some members are being extremely pedantic about some issues.
Sorry but many of us have a heck of a lot of hands on experience, that`s not us being pedantic, its us bringing up vitally important points - a lot of people read this forum so when something has been posted which someone might `try this at home` which could be harmful, it has to be explained as to why this or that should not be tried or why something `blanket stated` is just not appropriate for their own dog.

Christ, I feel like I'm the one going through a vetinary examination!
Ah well, this is a forum where people discuss things, you can`t just post something and expect everyone to read and accept things without question, Dogsey is a far too intelligent collection of people to try that on

Seriously, I only bothered writing the first post to try and underline the importance of some areas that would help maintain a happy healthy dog, it was essentially put out there as advice and instead, I'm having to defend the bloody thing as if it was some sort of statement, lol.
Is`nt that a bit like saying one Haynes Manual is suitable for all vehicles ?
Sure there are some basic things like keeping oil topped up and checking tyre pressures but there are many things which are not suitable from vehicle to vehicle.
Drive a Beetle across a pond and it will float.
Do it in a transit van and you`d need a tow truck to haul it out again when its sunk.
Put a newly qualified driver in a Ferrari then in a Mini - tell them to drive both the same way.
Then call an ambulance for them

Dogs are every bit as individual, there are some basic similarities but basic similarities is all, otherwise they would be called clones and one little pamphlet would cover everything an owner needs to know.

I needn't have bothered my bum.
What`s that saying about kitchens and heat ?

Definitely won't be creating another thread for honest intentions without evaluating the potential car crash it may turn into, that's for sure!

I am all for a good argument, but this has gotten a bit silly.
It`s a shame you feel that way but the thread has brought up very good points for other readers, to discuss, to question, and to expand knowledge.
Just as humans are not dogs and dogs know it, Dogsey members are not sheep either
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