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Clob
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13-06-2006, 09:23 PM
Leo
let me get this right so if a dog pulls on a lead you say SHOCK them?

Clob
No I never said that and it is a lie to suggest I did. You don’t use e-collars, to alarm a dog or as you say ‘shock’ so it’s a bit bemusing you should say that.

What knowledge or experience do you have of any e-collar, alternatively are you just guessing or making things up as you go along? if so why?

People who don’t understand e-collars and who choose ignorance of them are in a minority these days. Based on what you said it seems to me you are in that minority and wish to stay there. The same tendency happens in all subjects. There are allways those who have no wish to learn,it's easier that way.

Leo.
there are many types of head collars which suit alot of different breeds and designed around the shape of the dogs head. i have used the dogmatic and it goes no where near the eyes at all.

Clob
Scientific studies have shown there is no evidence to support the notion dogs reactions to different halter head cages are different, all dogs show severe stress reactions to all the head cage traps.

Study findings below:
“The responses of 12 dogs to four different head collars were compared in a crossover design over four 10 min sessions each spaced 2 weeks apart.
Group 1
included pawing, pawing nose, biting/pawing leash, opening mouth, rubbing face, and shaking head.
Group 2
included rearing up, balking, rushing forward, and rolling on ground.

No statistical difference was observed between dogs’ reactions to the head collar types.

Based on this study, there does not appear to be an increased acceptance of one head collar type over another.

Ref:
Comparison of dogs’ reactions to four different head collars
L. I. Haug, B. V. Beavera and M. T. Longneckerb - Department of Small Animal Medicine and Surgery, College of Veterinary Medicine, College Station USA
b Department of Statistics, Texas A&M University
Clob
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13-06-2006, 09:29 PM
Wigiwig
Oh purlease!
Far too many questions and answers, we are not 6 years old on here and as someone said, don't like being dictated to. Really!


Clob
So why did you post in the first place if you cannot take part, why are you completly off topic again?
uncllou
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13-06-2006, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by eRaze
Do Ecollars emit an electric shock or charge? If so that's why people think they are cruel.
TENS units emit an electrical shock too. They're used in physical therapy to help people recover from injuries. They're not cruel either. If you stick two knives into an electrical outlet you'll get a severe shock, perhaps enough to kill you, but electricity isn't cruel. Cruelty, like abuse is in how it's used.

Originally Posted by leo
you can train dogs to a high standard without ever needing such a tool in the process.
Wondering what "high standards" you've trained dogs to?

Originally Posted by trouble21
me too, have never had any problems getting the dogs to do what I want when I want certainly would never use any kind of shock collar.
I hear this all the time from folks. And then I go see them and provide some distractions. Then the excuses start. Perhaps not the case with you.

Originally Posted by Lucky Star
My dog is a terrible one for jumping up and I taught him to stop by a using a combineation of turning my back and making him sit before stroking him.
This method works very well . . . sometimes. I recall running into an entire family at the vet's office one day. All of them had nasty scratches down their legs. Their small dog had developed this habit of jumping up and a trainer had told them to just turn their backs on it and it would stop. It didn't and one member wound up in the hospital on an antibiotic drip when the wounds got infected. If it work, it works. If it doesn't and a lot depends on why the dog is jumping up, it doesn't.

Originally Posted by leo
let me get this right so if a dog pulls on a lead you say SHOCK them?
I haven't seen anyone write that. I must have missed that post Leo. Can you direct me to it?

Originally Posted by leo
and beside which a dog like a leo would need 1 hell of a shock to feel it, theres no way i would make my dog jump out of its skin to get its attention or focus back onto me.
No one is suggesting that you need to "make your dog jump out of its skin," and such a statement shows that you don't know anything about modern use of the Ecollar. When used properly the effect on the dog is that its ear flicks or it blinks. The most common reaction is that it sits and scratches as if bitten by a flea. What you know about Ecollar use does not apply to modern use of the modern tool.
Lucky Star
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13-06-2006, 09:33 PM
[1. Treats
Treats, if you throw a treat onto the road the dog might get hit by car, if you overfeed treats, as many do, you will almost certainly have al kinds of long term health problems, bones, joints, heart, reduction of a healthy life expectancy, if a dog is running off into a dangerous situation, refuses recall relying on offering a treat for recall could end up the dogs death.


What utter rubbish. I don't think there are many of us who chuck copious amounts of tasty treats all over the roads when rewarding a desired behaviour. Honestly! The idea is that if one is training vigorously the 'treats' are taken into account when considering the dog's daily food allowance and usually raisin sized, then subsequently fewer treats are required as other rewards can be substituted and alternated with simple praise so that the dog is not being bribed or given to relying on the said treat. And I hand my dog a treat when he is in a sitting position, not hurl it out in front of buses as in a game of fetch.

And wouldn't it be a shame if the dog was in hot pursuit of a motorbike across the road, the electric shock was applied ... and failed to work. If recall isn't established then the dog is safer on-lead in situations such as this anyway.


2. Collar and lead use.
a]
Studies carried out on dogs pulling on collars and leads show 92% out of 400 dogs had neck, larynx and other damage (Hallgren 1991), dogs are gagging all the time if they pull on collars.

This may well be true but then we learn to teach 'no pulling', rather than allowing the dog to throttle himself. And this can be done without stunning the poor creature with electric shocks.
leo
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13-06-2006, 09:34 PM
why are they called e collars if they do not submit a shock to the dog?
forgive me if im wrong but i always thought the "e" stood for electronic!
knowledge none as i have said i have never used them or ever will!
well being in the minority regarding using e collars on dogs under the training banner suits me just fine!
but i would hope you will FIND OUT its you who is in the minority regarding e collars on DW.
why is it you are so for the use of e collars? what has an e collar ever done with regarding training your dog for you that other methods can not get the same results????
Lucky Star
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13-06-2006, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by leo
why is it you are so for the use of e collars? what has an e collar ever done with regarding training your dog for you that other methods can not get the same results????
I can answer that, I think. For some this is an easy, no effort way of getting a result, rather than have to spend all that time and effort in kind, positive training and in building a good, strong bond of trust with your dog. I'd rather invest the time personally, as I know you would.
Wysiwyg
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13-06-2006, 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by Clob
Wigiwig
Oh purlease!
Far too many questions and answers, we are not 6 years old on here and as someone said, don't like being dictated to. Really!


Clob
So why did you post in the first place if you cannot take part, why are you completly off topic again?
I can take part easily enough, as for being off topic, "pot" "kettle" and "black" are I'm sure applicable here, as you took over someone's thread originally after all. You make me hoot!
Lucky Star
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13-06-2006, 09:44 PM
[QUOTE=uncllou]TENS units emit an electrical shock too. They're used in physical therapy to help people recover from injuries. They're not cruel either. If you stick two knives into an electrical outlet you'll get a severe shock, perhaps enough to kill you, but electricity isn't cruel. Cruelty, like abuse is in how it's used.

Well ... I can say that a TENS machine isn't used to give an electrical shock as an electric collar else there would be a lot of pregnant women in labour who might have something to say about that. Instead of experiencing a tingling sensation that stimulates nerves and results in the body producing natural endorphins for pain relief ,they'd all be convulsing about on the bed and not because of labour pains either!
leo
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13-06-2006, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by uncllou
TENS units emit an electrical shock too. They're used in physical therapy to help people recover from injuries. They're not cruel either. If you stick two knives into an electrical outlet you'll get a severe shock, perhaps enough to kill you, but electricity isn't cruel. Cruelty, like abuse is in how it's used.

but the difference with a tens machine is you choose to use it on yourself.

Wondering what "high standards" you've trained dogs to?

dont be so patronising you know nothing about me or the dogs i have kept/trained in the past or the dogs i own, the difference is i have not shocked my dogs into following commands because if they didn't do as asked by me.
can you walk a dog twice your body weight to heel on a loose lead? but i guess that comes naturally
I hear this all the time from folks. And then I go see them and provide some distractions. Then the excuses start. Perhaps not the case with you.



This method works very well . . . sometimes. I recall running into an entire family at the vet's office one day. All of them had nasty scratches down their legs. Their small dog had developed this habit of jumping up and a trainer had told them to just turn their backs on it and it would stop. It didn't and one member wound up in the hospital on an antibiotic drip when the wounds got infected. If it work, it works. If it doesn't and a lot depends on why the dog is jumping up, it doesn't.



I haven't seen anyone write that. I must have missed that post Leo. Can you direct me to it?
you never wrote it and i didn't say you had i was asking a simple question to clarify the way i read the post.



No one is suggesting that you need to "make your dog jump out of its skin," and such a statement shows that you don't know anything about modern use of the Ecollar. When used properly the effect on the dog is that its ear flicks or it blinks. The most common reaction is that it sits and scratches as if bitten by a flea. What you know about Ecollar use does not apply to modern use of the modern tool.
ok so i have to use a shock collar on my dog which will annoy them to get the focus on me?
but like i have said if you know my breed at all you will understand they are double coated so for the shock to reach the skin the level would have to be higher than a dog like yours being a dob ( or short coated breed).
Wysiwyg
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13-06-2006, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star
I can answer that, I think. For some this is an easy, no effort way of getting a result, rather than have to spend all that time and effort in kind, positive training and in building a good, strong bond of trust with your dog. I'd rather invest the time personally, as I know you would.
And some people sell the collars too, so make money from that unfortunately.
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