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willowish
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13-06-2006, 06:15 PM
e-collars give stim. Stim is electrical stimulation however it is dressed up pulse, sensation whatever term you use

Hi Denis and Lou long time no see. Still selling the collars then Lou.
Murphy
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13-06-2006, 06:30 PM
Off topic or chat posts merged:

I read this thread this morning and thought there were similarities in the style :roll:

Well it's probably best they realise we don't like being lectured to and their style raises my hackles don't know about anyone else. I'm now double glazed:shock:

Better brace yourself then Trouble ;-) ..there's more to come :?

No doubt:shock: :lol:

-end-
Lucky Star
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13-06-2006, 07:32 PM
That text is just one person's viewpoint. Search around and it is easy enough to find other, differing viewpoints. Just look at the number of different training theories that are out there. Incidentally, was that just a draft or the final, submitted paper as I am surprised if it was really accepted for publication in that format and without editing?

Wysiwyg I couldn't agree more.
darasa
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13-06-2006, 07:57 PM
OK as an average dog owner my understanding of positive & negative training is

I want my dog to sit...

POSITIVE.. I ask her to sit, she sits i reward with a tidbit, she doesn't sit,I move my hand holding the treat upwards whilst I guide her rump down, issue the sit command and reward. She "obeys" because she wants the treat which later may become verbal praise stroking etc.

NEGATIVE..I issue the sit command, she sits. I ask her to sit she doesn't comply I shout sit whilst slapping her rump to the ground and yelling SIT SIT. She complies because she is has been forced too and later will obey out of fear of me.

and please no sceintific replies regarding the terminolgy of positive and negative.. I have used them in their broad terms as do most of the poeple here.


TROUBLE21
Well it's probably best they realise we don't like being lectured to and their style raises my hackles don't know about anyone else. I'm now double glazed
I have to agree I find the style rather confrontational, so far I don't think they have actually contributed anything just challenged the general perception of Positive and Negative for no apparent reason other than to prove their intellectual worth and smartly moved the thread to a discussion about Electric collars... A discussion that was had fairly recently with another member who was letting her dog off lead and shocking him in preference to a lunge line.

No offence intended just my personal opinion

Rachel
Clob
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13-06-2006, 08:40 PM
Wizwig response part 1.

Wiziwig
Electric collars are able to go from 0-100 so you cannot say Clobb that they cannot be painful.

Clob
I have never said an e-collar could not be painful, not only that I have never come across any training aid which cannot be painful if misused and many in normal use are both dangerous and painfull, ( you are talking about misuse of training aids, for reasons unknown ) but the fact that you isolated an e-collar suggest that you are familiar with the dangers and pain caused by all canine equipment in normal use, there is no way you can separate one of them, you can only put them in context and asses them by comparison.

Taking your topic of misuse of canine training aids ( off topic but I am getting used to it ).

1. Treats
Treats, if you throw a treat onto the road the dog might get hit by car, if you overfeed treats, as many do, you will almost certainly have al kinds of long term health problems, bones, joints, heart, reduction of a healthy life expectancy, if a dog is running off into a dangerous situation, refuses recall relying on offering a treat for recall could end up the dogs death.

2. Collar and lead use.
a]
Studies carried out on dogs pulling on collars and leads show 92% out of 400 dogs had neck, larynx and other damage (Hallgren 1991), dogs are gagging all the time if they pull on collars.

b]
Quote:
“Hi! I have a 14 week old bedlington whippet who is pulling on the lead until he chokes. I have never had a dog before and don't know what to do. I'm really scared he'll injure his throat”

3. Halties
I cannot post links so below are two pet owner comments out of thousands of examples of Halties in normal use.

a] Quote:
“Help my dog will not stop clawing at his halti whan where out he is starting to make his face bleed I keep on pulling him up and saying no but its the same 2 mins later its worse when we see another dog”

b] Quote: (someone recommended a head collar for pulling)
“Headcollar - he was the one who developed a bleed behind the eye last time we tried that - so no.”

c] Quote:
“For the last three weeks he has been on a halti which is now hurting him so badly, it does not stop him pulling. He has had no training at all, fights against sits, etc. On the halti he salivates so much there are pools of water all around him.”

3. Balls

a] Chihaua puppy.
“ Xxxx loved to chase the ball but I thought he was over the other side of the garden, Kira went to get the ball as did Xxxx (Chiuahua ) he was so fast she didn't see the little guy and fell over him and broke his neck.”

4.
a]
Kennel Club extensive research 1996 – 2006 not one single substantiated case of any problems.
b]
“We concluded that no physiological harm can be caused by electro pulse muscle stimulation collars” Interpreted from the German.
|
Klein, D., 2000. Elektrogeräte: Grundlagen, Wirkungen und mögliche Gefahren im Hinblick auf die Anwendung
in der Hundeausbildung. Der Gebrauchshund 1, 38–48.



Rather than carry on with thousands of other examples (taking into account you went off topic) I suggest you do some research yourself on the safety of training equipment, which is what your remark above is suggesting.

I'll get back to your other points soon as I can but in the meantime can you please tell me what (and everyone reading) what knowledge and experience you have of any kind of e-collars, please state make and model so I know its capabilities and potential.
leo
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13-06-2006, 08:46 PM
let me get this right so if a dog pulls on a lead you say SHOCK them?
there are many types of head collars which suit alot of different breeds and designed around the shape of the dogs head.
i have used the dogmatic and it goes no where near the eyes at all.
Clob
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13-06-2006, 08:49 PM
willowish
e-collars give stim. Stim is electrical stimulation however it is dressed up pulse, sensation whatever term you use. Hi Denis and Lou long time no see. Still selling the collars then Lou.

Clob
An excellent contribution willowish (whoever you are) to a thread about OC negative and positive etc.
Wysiwyg
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13-06-2006, 09:00 PM
Oh purlease!

Far too many questions and answers, we are not 6 years old on here and as someone said, don't like being dictated to. Really!
leo
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13-06-2006, 09:12 PM
clob we are all experience dog owners and have owned dogs for a number of years, also different breeds and ways of training too.
you like these e collars that is plain to see which is fine if that is the method you choose to use on your own dogs, but i don't like them and choose to not use them as a training tool for the dogs i own or the dogs i may have in the future.
each dog has its strengths and weaknesses in the training some breeds pick up commands faster than others but i really can't see the need to shock any dog in the name of training if you have real issues you cant resolve with other methods i would sooner see a professional dog behaviorist via my vets than attempt to use the shock method.

and beside which a dog like a leo would need 1 hell of a shock to feel it, theres no way i would make my dog jump out of its skin to get its attention or focus back onto me.
willowish
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13-06-2006, 09:13 PM
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