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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Why is it shock collar supporters always ask the same questions? And then give the same replies, and then so it goes on - it's always the same. I think you all frequent some kind of shock collar planet or something

I don't mean to be rude, but we've had some seemingly pleasant people on here before who have been shock supporters and all they all have an agenda - to promote shock collar use at the detriment of animal welfare.


Wys
I don't consider you rude at all, but I thought I had (repeatedly) made my intentions clear, and "promotion" is certainly not one of them. Have you had time to wade thru all of my posts? I only asked one question, and since no one has as yet bothered to answer (which I find a bit disconcerting), how can you possibly conclude my reply would be the same as that of other "supporters"??
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Chris
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28-01-2013, 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
I don't consider you rude at all, but I thought I had (repeatedly) made my intentions clear, and "promotion" is certainly not one of them. Have you had time to wade thru all of my posts? I only asked one question, and since no one has as yet bothered to answer (which I find a bit disconcerting), how can you possibly conclude my reply would be the same as that of other "supporters"??
I gave you some examples of personal observations. Perhaps you missed them
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Meg
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28-01-2013, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Don't have time to search other threads, too busy replying to this one!
Firstlight had you heeded my advice to search previous threads on the subject in question you would have seen a number of videos demonstrating the use of e collars posted by their proponents. These are usually people who are incapable of reading and interpreting the body language demonstrated by their dogs, the signs of fear, distress and 'shutting down' .

I won't help you find and link to such threads myself because I have no desire to contribute to promoting these devices in any way.
Those who do promote these devices almost always do so with an evangelical fervour, they will not be dissuaded from their 'message' and those of us who see these devices as cruel will not change our opinion so there is always a situation of stalemate in these kind of threads.
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JulieSS
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28-01-2013, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
If there was not a trained command given prior to the shock, and the dog is merely being taught stop a behavior via an unpleasant association with same, that is punishment as I use the term. That is most definitely not the way the dollar should be used. And of course a mis-timed correction is harmful, there isn't a faster way to ruin a dog than improper use of electricity.

I bring the collar into play only after the dog has been thoroughly trained (positively!) without it, and conditioned to it's use in all commands (a must to maintain behavioral balance). From then on, it is used to motivate the dog to make good choices with regard to command response. One should rarely have to use it if the dog is conditioned properly, because he wants to obey, even in the face of extreme and sometimes life-threatening distraction, and even if obeying is counter to strong, genetically installed drive to do otherwise.

Why is using the collar when a dog "willfully disobeys" not punishment?

What the collar does to your dog is giving it such a unpleasant experience that even in life-threatening situations or when genes kick in (hunt, flight etc) it choses not to respond - because the "correction" (punishment as I see it) is strong enough to prevent it from doing so.

I just wish sometimes people could just admit that it IS a form of punishment and that's why their dog is listening to the command (because it's avoiding getting a shock and that's why it "wants" to obey). You see the collar as a motivator, I feel that is using pretty words and seeing it in a very light way. I see the collar/dog knowing about the chance of getting a shock more as a threat to the dog.


PS: I'm not completely against punishing a dog, I know people think that sounds horrible, but no dog is the same and they respond differently.
I've got a water bottle on my desk which is my biggest threat to my dog whenever he tries to act like a dictating lord around the house. However, I do feel that getting some water splashed on you is slightly better than getting an electric shock (but yes! It is still punishment and a threat ).
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
I don't believe that we are dealing with different types of animal at all, just different mindsets on training techniques.

Personal observations that have confirmed my views on why positive punishment is not required or desired in dog training include:

Seeing so many dogs trained without them to highly reliable standards

I have a feeling that's not what you are looking for. I believe you are asking for personal observations in respect of fall out from the use of positive punishment so I'll include just a few:

I've tried an e-collar on my arm along with a group of other people in the same group. Every one of us felt a different sensation from mildly distracting to painful (same setting used for each). There's no way of knowing what a dog feels when a shock is given even at lower levels.

I've known one dog personally who was put to sleep for a severe attack after the owner started using one to deter barking at the fence when people passed. Before the collar was used, the dog had never bitten.

I personally knew an owner and wannabe dog trainer who used one on her dog as it was trying to get to next door's cat through the fence and this was causing major ructions with the neighbour. The dog went out into the garden and just as it started towards the fence after the cat, the owner administered the shock. The dog ran back indoors and it took three weeks of desensitisation before the dog would take a step out into the garden even to toilet.

These are just in relation to the e-collar.

If you want examples of fall out from personal observations
of other physical aversive techniques, just say. I have so many I could write a book, unfortunately

Brierley, BLESS YOU, these examples are exactly what I was seeking!! I have seen all of the same things in response to misuse of the collar. Please stay tuned, I have to go now but I will flesh out this response when I return.
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28-01-2013, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Firstlight had you heeded my advice to search previous threads on the subject in question you would have seen a number of videos demonstrating the use of e collars posted by their proponents. These are usually people who are incapable of reading and interpreting the body language demonstrated by their dogs, the signs of fear, distress and 'shutting down' .

I won't help you find and link to such threads myself because I have no desire to contribute to promoting these devices in any way.
Those who do promote these devices almost always do so with an evangelical fervour, they will not be dissuaded from their 'message' and those of us who see these devices as cruel will not change our opinion so there is always a situation of stalemate in these kind of threads.
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Brierley, BLESS YOU, these examples are exactly what I was seeking!! I have seen all of the same things in response to misuse of the collar. Please stay tuned, I have to go now but I will flesh out this response when I return.
Mini is absolutely right. We've all been here before and it always goes the same way, including:- Firstlight, you appear to be trying to twist it round so that it's the 'abuse' of the collar that is the issue, rather than the abuse of the dog by using one in the first place. As I say, this has happened before - as Wysiwig said in post number 43:

"Why is it shock collar supporters always ask the same questions? And then give the same replies, and then so it goes on - it's always the same. I think you all frequent some kind of shock collar planet or something

I don't mean to be rude, but we've had some seemingly pleasant people on here before who have been shock supporters and all they all have an agenda - to promote shock collar use at the detriment of animal welfare."
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 05:12 PM
I am sorry, but I don't see the point of responding to any more posts aimed at merely criticizing the collar, or comparing it's use to abuse of children. I GET IT, y'all think the collar is an instrument of Satan, and think anyone who uses it should be drawn and quartered. I GET IT ALREADY, what I don't get is why, out of the great number of responders with this opinion, no one except for Brierley has been willing (or able???) to provide an answer to my question. I don't have time to repeatedly respond to posts that merely bash the collar as I do not consider them germane. I have to break now, will back later to respond to posts that are reasoned and productive, and especially to add to my post to Brierley. Thank you all for your participation so far. Later . . .
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Chris
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28-01-2013, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Brierley, BLESS YOU, these examples are exactly what I was seeking!! I have seen all of the same things in response to misuse of the collar. Please stay tuned, I have to go now but I will flesh out this response when I return.
More extreme use, certainly, but, unfortunately how many owners and even trainers use them

Even when used in a way that many would term 'correct use', the tool is designed to give discomfort over the pain threshold to give the desired effect.

Not a good way to train a dog, in my opinion
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Azz
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28-01-2013, 05:15 PM
Susan, you ask why people are against the use of electric shock collars - that's easy to answer - because they inflict pain. Both physical and mental.

If you are unfamiliar with it, I would look up the research done by Ivan Pavlov - it was covered recently in a BBC documentary called The Brain: A Secret History http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00xccs9 - I think you can view it here: http://vimeo.com/18608588

Although the example is extreme, the principle is the same.

Dog lovers do not hit/inflict pain on their animals.
Dog lovers do not mentally or physically abuse their pets.

As has been asked of you several times, why not give us real life examples of your usage - i.e the precise context in which you use them, the frequency of use and why you feel other (positive based) methods do not work. As many have said here, positive based training can be used for almost anything where one might have previously used punishment based training.
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Azz
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28-01-2013, 05:21 PM
Also, a quick note about this thread - it's not good netiquette to start a new thread quoting someone from another. This is because it's unfair to drag people into a thread that they may not want to get involved in with.

By all means start a new thread on a topic, but it should be able to stand alone, and not be tied to another. (You could just say something like "A recent thread on training inspired this one".)

We'll leave this thread up now as Lindsay has replied a few times, but please bear this in mind for future. Thanks
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