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Chris
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28-01-2013, 03:25 PM
Am I right in guessing that your idea of putting a dog in control of the punishment, you are talking about the use of the collar in terms of negative reinforcement?

ie, in this case applying the shock continually until the dog starts to comply with the command and then stopping it?
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star View Post
As a user of these collars, how have you personally studied and measured the physiological and psychological effect of e-collars on dogs?
No I have not. Such studies have been done, and produced some interesting results, e.g., the finding of a release of endorphins that occurs when the animal avoids correction.
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Malpeki
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28-01-2013, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
You don't have to explain anything, I am simply asking how you arrived at your conclusions about the collar.
how?

simply

I have a heart and a healthy mind
and our animal welfare/protection act and what's written in about cruelty of animals and that e-collars are NOT ALLOWED over here, just is enough confirmation to me, that I cannot be too wrong with my opinion

I also have not to stab someone with a knife before and then I'm asking if it did hurt

but you really bore me now, as it seems to me, your brain is just working differently to mine and it seems, that you simply not geting anything

so I just will join Tangutica and I'm out here as well

have fun and bye bye
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Jackie
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28-01-2013, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
I didn't ask if you used one, I asked for a description of the personal observations of their use which formed your opinions. I would love to explain how my training puts the dog in control of his fate, but I need a reply to my question. Anyone???
Yes I have witnessed one being used, I was not happy, the dog was not happy, the only one oblivious to the pain /stress it caused was the so called trainer.

BUT.........one does not have to stick ones finger in a live socket to know one is going to get a nasty shock
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by JulieSS View Post
I don't know the right words for how to translate it properly, but it's a course to aim for the dog to be "sheep clean" which means it will never run after sheep (most people don't do this, but say for example they live close to sheep and have it done before the dog ever gets the chance to get the taste for hunting sheep).
I've never been to a course but from what I've had people tell me: the dog is let into a pen with sheep with the E-collar on, and the second it shows any signs of wanting to hunt or run towards the sheep, they give it a shock.
I don't think theres much going on prior to the shock given, it's meant to just be a really strong physical unpleasant experience so that the dog associates chasing sheep with pain/being shocked.

Many people disagree with even using an e-collar in a controlled situation as it's so unpleasant and if you get the timing wrong you can do so much harm..

Not completely sure what you mean with "pros", but anyone shocking a dog against sheep must be to use the e-collar, yes.
Any other trainer is like dog trainers in England, really. You don't need much to call yourself a dog trainer, hehe.

----
How do you use the e-collar in a training situation when you feel that the dog is trained and knows what you are asking?
If there was not a trained command given prior to the shock, and the dog is merely being taught stop a behavior via an unpleasant association with same, that is punishment as I use the term. That is most definitely not the way the dollar should be used. And of course a mis-timed correction is harmful, there isn't a faster way to ruin a dog than improper use of electricity.

"Pros" = professionals. More's the pity that anyone and his brother can call themselves a trainer, it's the same over here.

I bring the collar into play only after the dog has been thoroughly trained (positively!) without it, and conditioned to it's use in all commands (a must to maintain behavioral balance). From then on, it is used to motivate the dog to make good choices with regard to command response. One should rarely have to use it if the dog is conditioned properly, because he wants to obey, even in the face of extreme and sometimes life-threatening distraction, and even if obeying is counter to strong, genetically installed drive to do otherwise.
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Lucky Star
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28-01-2013, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
No I have not. Such studies have been done, and produced some interesting results, e.g., the finding of a release of endorphins that occurs when the animal avoids correction.
Then with respect, you are not in a position to claim that your training "puts the dog in control of its fate" or that there is nothing "sad about it when done correctly" or that the collar is "far easier on the dog" or that the idea that collars are disgusting is a "mistaken idea", since you have not tried to find out if this is the case. It is merely your own personal belief and not based upon any study or measure that you have carried out.

You are no doubt aware of the Matthijs B.H. Schilder a,b,∗, Joanne A.M. van der Borg a study:


"We concluded that shocks received during training are not only unpleasant but also painful
and frightening. Furthermore, we found that shocked dogs are more stressful on the training
grounds than controls, but also in a park. This implies, that whenever the handler is around,
the dog seems to expect an aversive event to occur. A second unwanted association might
be that the dogs have learned to associate a specific command with getting a shock"

http://eldri.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir...hockcollar.pdf
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 04:06 PM
[QUOTE=Malka;2655507][B]There is no such thing as a "good shock" whoever administers it.

It is nothing but sheer and utter cruelty.

I simply used the phrase the poster used for clarity.
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
If one of my well trained makes a mistake(dogs do not do "willful"disobedience)I take a heavy stick wrapped in newspaper & hit myself on the head to remind me to be a better trainer.

Zapping electricity through a dog's body is a bad trainer's way of correcting the errors in their training methods.

I have had to help retrain several rescue GSDs who had suffered at the hands of e collar trainers.
Good one Joedee, I have actually used that technique (minus the heavy stick!) on my clients who failed to grasp the principles of correction vs. punishment. And your shepherds were most probably at the mercy of ignorant "trainers" who had no interest in learning proper collar conditioning, and just wanted a quick fix via the button. Lot of that going around, kudos to you for helping those unfortunate dogs.
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JoedeeUK
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28-01-2013, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Good one Joedee, I have actually used that technique (minus the heavy stick!) on my clients who failed to grasp the principles of correction vs. punishment. And your shepherds were most probably at the mercy of ignorant "trainers" who had no interest in learning proper collar conditioning, and just wanted a quick fix via the button. Lot of that going around, kudos to you for helping those unfortunate dogs.
Er no they included "failed police dogs", dogs that had "benefited"from so called experts who used e collars & still use them today.
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petitsfilous
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28-01-2013, 04:24 PM
I want to hit myself on the head with a heavy stick after reading this thread. Talk about painful! Jeez.
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