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Malka
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28-01-2013, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
...[snip]...A "good" shock would be one administered by a trainer who knows how to use the collar properly
There is no such thing as a "good shock" whoever administers it.

It is nothing but sheer and utter cruelty.
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JoedeeUK
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28-01-2013, 03:00 PM
If one of my well trained makes a mistake(dogs do not do "willful"disobedience)I take a heavy stick wrapped in newspaper & hit myself on the head to remind me to be a better trainer.

Zapping electricity through a dog's body is a bad trainer's way of correcting the errors in their training methods.

I have had to help retrain several rescue GSDs who had suffered at the hands of e collar trainers.
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Wysiwyg
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28-01-2013, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
.....

I am trying to learn why that is so by asking for personal observations of their use. Given all the passionate anti-collar responses, surely someone among you has such an observation to contribute.
Why is it shock collar supporters always ask the same questions? And then give the same replies, and then so it goes on - it's always the same. I think you all frequent some kind of shock collar planet or something

I don't mean to be rude, but we've had some seemingly pleasant people on here before who have been shock supporters and all they all have an agenda - to promote shock collar use at the detriment of animal welfare.


Wys
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Wysiwyg
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28-01-2013, 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Tangutica View Post
...I think you've probably got what you wanted - about 3 pages of controversy.
Yup
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by Shane View Post
I think that's a genuinely interesting question.

But is it even possible for a dog to "willfully Disobey"?
I think probably not.

For a dog to willfully disobey I think he would have to think like a human and due to the lack of a highly developed cerebral cortex, he simply doesn't.

Dogs are conditioned to act in the way they do.
If they don't return to the handler when recalled then this is due to the fact that they have not been sufficiently conditioned to do so.

Even if the dog returns 95% of the time, this doesn't mean that the dog is wilfully disobeying the other 5% of the time.
He simply has a conflict of interests, "Play with another dog or go home" and he will go the the bigger reward.
Why wouldn't he?
It's for us to condition him into thinking, returning when called is the bigger reward.

I believe dogs learn through instant Karma.
If something positive happens they are more likely to repeat the behaviour that triggered the something positive.
If something negative happens, they are less likely to repeat the behaviour.
So in that respect I think a shock collar could work if the timing was correct but the question is,
Is there a better, kinder more ethical way of training a dog? and I think there is
Shane, THANK YOU for this reply, please continue to contribute! In the interest of time, please see my previous posts re: causes of command failures and disobedience. I agree that willful disobedience is rare, but it does happen IME. You are correct in your view of how dogs learn, and they can learn to disobey just as quickly as they learn obedience. Collar conditioning shows the dog that the "bigger reward" comes from obeying commands previously taught with conventional methods and thoroughly proofed in the third stage of training. I.E. one must know how to train without it before one ever slaps it on a dog.. And it's not just a case of timing the correction, it's about putting the dog in control of whether he gets corrected or not.
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Chris
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28-01-2013, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
I certainly agree that a good many command failures are caused by things other than the dog deciding "not right now thanks", (see Minihaha's post #16 and my response in #30); but IME that decision does occur. Apparently the British are dealing with a different type of animal than we have here in the US, which wouldn't surprise me considering the gross number of poorly-bred dogs and ignorant owners we have over here. Again, punishment and correction are very different terms in the way I am using them here. Your collective view of the collar obviously is different from mine, I am trying to learn why that is so by asking for personal observations of their use. Given all the passionate anti-collar responses, surely someone among you has such an observation to contribute.
I don't believe that we are dealing with different types of animal at all, just different mindsets on training techniques.

Personal observations that have confirmed my views on why positive punishment is not required or desired in dog training include:

Seeing so many dogs trained without them to highly reliable standards

I have a feeling that's not what you are looking for. I believe you are asking for personal observations in respect of fall out from the use of positive punishment so I'll include just a few:

I've tried an e-collar on my arm along with a group of other people in the same group. Every one of us felt a different sensation from mildly distracting to painful (same setting used for each). There's no way of knowing what a dog feels when a shock is given even at lower levels.

I've known one dog personally who was put to sleep for a severe attack after the owner started using one to deter barking at the fence when people passed. Before the collar was used, the dog had never bitten.

I personally knew an owner and wannabe dog trainer who used one on her dog as it was trying to get to next door's cat through the fence and this was causing major ructions with the neighbour. The dog went out into the garden and just as it started towards the fence after the cat, the owner administered the shock. The dog ran back indoors and it took three weeks of desensitisation before the dog would take a step out into the garden even to toilet.

These are just in relation to the e-collar.

If you want examples of fall out from personal observations
of other physical aversive techniques, just say. I have so many I could write a book, unfortunately
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Malka
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28-01-2013, 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
...[snip].... Collar conditioning shows the dog that the "bigger reward" comes from obeying commands previously taught with conventional methods and thoroughly proofed in the third stage of training. I.E. one must know how to train without it before one ever slaps it on a dog.. And it's not just a case of timing the correction, it's about putting the dog in control of whether he gets corrected or not.
I guess you think that a kick in the ribs "conditioning" is also a proven third stage of "training".
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Tangutica View Post
Certainly not by USING one. But in no small part by reading the sort of tosh you are spouting about them on here.

The dog is in control - yeah right! He would be if he had the remote (or any choice) and I'm out of here now.

I think you've probably got what you wanted - about 3 pages of controversy.
I didn't ask if you used one, I asked for a description of the personal observations of their use which formed your opinions. I would love to explain how my training puts the dog in control of his fate, but I need a reply to my question. Anyone???
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Shane
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28-01-2013, 03:21 PM
I am trying to learn why that is so by asking for personal observations of their use. Given all the passionate anti-collar responses, surely someone among you has such an observation to contribute.
Most people who don't support such methods are doing so out of instinct and judgement. They are not people who tried it and found it not to work, and if they were, I'm sure your answer would be that they hadn't used it properly.

I've not tried a shock collar on my kids but I can still reach a reasonable sound conclusion that such a thing would be cruel and not helpful.

I'm glad you stuck around and discussed this topic politely in the face of so much opposition but you continue to give no explanation of how you use the collar yourself so the topics going nowhere.
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Malpeki View Post
BTW, actually right that paragraph IS exactly of this threat
Sorry, I have no idea what this means.
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