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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by Malpeki View Post
didn't you get that of Minihaha?

ETA Like a number of other members here I have no interest in discussing this topic.
If you do a site search on the topic of e collars you will find a number of threads where they have been discussed in depth.
Don't have time to search other threads, too busy replying to this one!
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Tang
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28-01-2013, 02:15 PM
Malpeki and Tangutica: You have some strong opinions re: the e-collar, surely you can tell me how you arrived at them?
Certainly not by USING one. But in no small part by reading the sort of tosh you are spouting about them on here.

The dog is in control - yeah right! He would be if he had the remote (or any choice) and I'm out of here now.

I think you've probably got what you wanted - about 3 pages of controversy.
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star View Post
One doesn't need to witness someone kicking a dog to be of the opinion that it's abusive and unpleasant physically, emotionally or both for the dog.
Of course not, Lucky Star, but what I am after is hearing about the incidences of e-collar use folks have observed that cause them to equate it's use to kicking a dog.
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Malpeki
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28-01-2013, 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Malpeki and Tangutica: You have some strong opinions re: the e-collar, surely you can tell me how you arrived at them?
do I also have to explain, why I have a strong opinion re: rape or child abuse for example too?

I don't think so
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Shane
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28-01-2013, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
This is a spin-off of the thread "Disappointed with a training class". I would like to start by addressing a couple of posts in that thread; unfortunately I do not know how to move a quote from one thread to another, so I will just note poster name and post number.

Wysiwyg, in post # 20 (which quotes my original post): You posted that "negative punishment", (I believe you meant negative reinforcement?) is "usually withholding something the dog wants". What other types of NR do you use?

Punishment vs. correction: Semantics here. To me, "punishment" aims to stop an unwanted behavior, right now. "Correction" occurs when a dog willfully disobeys a command installed via the first two stages of training.

Gun dog trainers: From what I understand, trainers in the US are dealing with a different sort of dog than those of you in Britain, the differences being due to the requirements of the field events in each country. If this is a mis-perception, on my part please correct it.

Shock collars: Yes I use them, (as do a lot of my clients), and there is nothing "sad" about it, when done properly. It is a tool, nothing more, and like all tools is only as good/bad as the person holding the transmitter.

Response reliability: Dogs are animals, governed by instinct and drives, and they have minds of their own. I would never expect 100% reliability from any animal.

Physical correction: Semantics again, and my fault for not being clear. I do not use any correction in the first two stages of training, where it is inappropriate and harmful. I do not introduce (proper) correction until I am sure the dog understands the command.

I don't think you and I are as far apart in our methods as it may seem. Let me ask you this: How do you handle a dog which willfully disobeys a thoroughly trained command?
I think that's a genuinely interesting question.

But is it even possible for a dog to "willfully Disobey"?
I think probably not.

For a dog to willfully disobey I think he would have to think like a human and due to the lack of a highly developed cerebral cortex, he simply doesn't.

Dogs are conditioned to act in the way they do.
If they don't return to the handler when recalled then this is due to the fact that they have not been sufficiently conditioned to do so.

Even if the dog returns 95% of the time, this doesn't mean that the dog is wilfully disobeying the other 5% of the time.
He simply has a conflict of interests, "Play with another dog or go home" and he will go the the bigger reward.
Why wouldn't he?
It's for us to condition him into thinking, returning when called is the bigger reward.

I believe dogs learn through instant Karma.
If something positive happens they are more likely to repeat the behaviour that triggered the something positive.
If something negative happens, they are less likely to repeat the behaviour.
So in that respect I think a shock collar could work if the timing was correct but the question is,
Is there a better, kinder more ethical way of training a dog? and I think there is
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Malpeki
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28-01-2013, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Don't have time to search other threads, too busy replying to this one!
BTW, actually right that paragraph IS exactly of this threat
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Lucky Star
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28-01-2013, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Of course not, Lucky Star, but what I am after is hearing about the incidences of e-collar use folks have observed that cause them to equate it's use to kicking a dog.

As a user of these collars, how have you personally studied and measured the physiological and psychological effect of e-collars on dogs?
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JulieSS
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28-01-2013, 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Julie SS,
I ever told anyone they "don't understand". I would be happy to provide such examples, but I think I can best do that in response to the question I asked both Youngstevie and Jackbox. Perhaps you could tell me exactly how the collar is used to stop dogs in Norway, starting with, what did the trainer do just prior to the shock?

Does Norway require all pros to be certified? And yes, figuring dogs out is very interesting; and, in the case of some of my clients, much easier that figuring out the owners LOL!
I don't know the right words for how to translate it properly, but it's a course to aim for the dog to be "sheep clean" which means it will never run after sheep (most people don't do this, but say for example they live close to sheep and have it done before the dog ever gets the chance to get the taste for hunting sheep).
I've never been to a course but from what I've had people tell me: the dog is let into a pen with sheep with the E-collar on, and the second it shows any signs of wanting to hunt or run towards the sheep, they give it a shock.
I don't think theres much going on prior to the shock given, it's meant to just be a really strong physical unpleasant experience so that the dog associates chasing sheep with pain/being shocked.

Many people disagree with even using an e-collar in a controlled situation as it's so unpleasant and if you get the timing wrong you can do so much harm..

Not completely sure what you mean with "pros", but anyone shocking a dog against sheep must be to use the e-collar, yes.
Any other trainer is like dog trainers in England, really. You don't need much to call yourself a dog trainer, hehe.

----
How do you use the e-collar in a training situation when you feel that the dog is trained and knows what you are asking?
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
Not semantics at all. As a dog trainer, I am sure you are aware of the four quadrants of operant conditioning?

Positive reinforcement
Negative reinforcement
Positive punishment (which you call correction)
Negative punishment

Whether stopping and unwanted behaviour right now or stopping a behaviour when a dog has disobeyed a command, giving a physical correction is positive punishment.

Dogs aren't willfully disobedient - they are either sufficiently trained or insufficiently trained to perform a command. If sufficiently trained, they will comply regardless, if insufficiently trained, they will comply intermittently until the command has been proofed well enough for reliable repetition.



It's a tool designed to give physical discomfort remotely. There's no 'good' no matter how it's used.



As said, 'willfully disobeys' is an emotive term that has no place in dog training. Commands are either conditioned sufficiently or they are not. If a dog disobeys a command, it's time for the trainer to rethink their training and backtrack to ensure that what they are teaching has been proofed well enough for the dog to be able to comply.
I certainly agree that a good many command failures are caused by things other than the dog deciding "not right now thanks", (see Minihaha's post #16 and my response in #30); but IME that decision does occur. Apparently the British are dealing with a different type of animal than we have here in the US, which wouldn't surprise me considering the gross number of poorly-bred dogs and ignorant owners we have over here. Again, punishment and correction are very different terms in the way I am using them here. Your collective view of the collar obviously is different from mine, I am trying to learn why that is so by asking for personal observations of their use. Given all the passionate anti-collar responses, surely someone among you has such an observation to contribute.
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Malpeki View Post
do I also have to explain, why I have a strong opinion re: rape or child abuse for example too?

I don't think so
You don't have to explain anything, I am simply asking how you arrived at your conclusions about the collar.
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