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Firstlight
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Location: western NY, usa
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28-01-2013, 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by youngstevie View Post
Interesting....

can I ask by ''wilfully disobey' .... and.....disobedient 'imperfect dog'
are you suggesting a dog should react 'all the time' 'everytime'... 'first time to a command'. like the dog should be programmed rather than the dog has a mind/brain...which OK maybe we don't want it doing the same 'bad habit' thing over and over......but no dog is perfect, personally I don't make such a big deal about it, there are ways round it more often than not.

I've owned Border Collies for 50 years and the rescues have learnt bad habits which is nigh on impossible to break so I have to work with the bad habit to swing it round to an acceptable habit (never perfect)
and some BC's are bred as workers...then someone buys them as a pet ...and the problems begin.....again the 'habit' has to be worked with rather than it being broken.

As someone once said to me....don't moan about the problem....find a solution.

E collars IMO are a horrid form of punishment. Negative punishment is no good IMO either/
Hello Youngstevie,
I thought I had made myself clear on the subject of "perfect" dogs in my post #6, and on the use of e-collars as punishment in the post just before yours (also see my first post), did you read all of my posts?

Believe me, I am well aware of the consequences of dog owners who get dogs that are totally unsuitable for them; indeed, most of the folks who come to me with their problem dogs have made this most egregious error, and I also encountered this as a breeder of dogs that had to be placed carefully. This situation is extremely disturbing to me because it is the dog that pays the price for buyer's bad choices, and is what prompted me to write my first book.

Can you give me specific examples of incidents you have personally witnessed that led to your opinion of e-collars?
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JulieSS
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28-01-2013, 12:04 PM
Firstlight: if you are gonna have any chance of making people understand why you are using an E-collar than you at least have to come up with some examples where and how you use it, not just go "you don't understand" .

E-collars are illegal in Norway and only certified trainers can use them - but ONLY for stopping dogs from running after sheep, in a confined area during a course and only once.

It is interesting how dogs learn and to figure out what makes them tick.
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Why am not surprised..........

You will find on this forum (as its mainly UK based) that you are not going to make many friends or have any members agree with due to your use of e.collars.......... they are barbaric.



Wilfully disobedient and disobedient imperfect
Hi Jackbox,
I am well aware of the origins of this forum and the different opinions on training methods. It was never my intention to have members agree with me on anything, I merely hoped to learn about training in your country. To that end I ask you the same question I asked Youngstevie (and anyone else who wants to chime in): Can you describe specific incidents you have personally witnessed that shaped your opinion on the use of e-collars?
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by JulieSS View Post
Firstlight: if you are gonna have any chance of making people understand why you are using an E-collar than you at least have to come up with some examples where and how you use it, not just go "you don't understand" .

E-collars are illegal in Norway and only certified trainers can use them - but ONLY for stopping dogs from running after sheep, in a confined area during a course and only once.

It is interesting how dogs learn and to figure out what makes them tick.
Julie SS,
I ever told anyone they "don't understand". I would be happy to provide such examples, but I think I can best do that in response to the question I asked both Youngstevie and Jackbox. Perhaps you could tell me exactly how the collar is used to stop dogs in Norway, starting with, what did the trainer do just prior to the shock?

Does Norway require all pros to be certified? And yes, figuring dogs out is very interesting; and, in the case of some of my clients, much easier that figuring out the owners LOL!
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Malpeki
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28-01-2013, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Can you give me specific examples of incidents you have personally witnessed that led to your opinion of e-collars?
didn't you get that of Minihaha?

ETA Like a number of other members here I have no interest in discussing this topic.
If you do a site search on the topic of e collars you will find a number of threads where they have been discussed in depth.
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Lucky Star
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28-01-2013, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Hi Jackbox,
I am well aware of the origins of this forum and the different opinions on training methods. It was never my intention to have members agree with me on anything, I merely hoped to learn about training in your country. To that end I ask you the same question I asked Youngstevie (and anyone else who wants to chime in): Can you describe specific incidents you have personally witnessed that shaped your opinion on the use of e-collars?
One doesn't need to witness someone kicking a dog to be of the opinion that it's abusive and unpleasant physically, emotionally or both for the dog.
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Chris
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28-01-2013, 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Punishment vs. correction: Semantics here. To me, "punishment" aims to stop an unwanted behavior, right now. "Correction" occurs when a dog willfully disobeys a command installed via the first two stages of training.
Not semantics at all. As a dog trainer, I am sure you are aware of the four quadrants of operant conditioning?

Positive reinforcement
Negative reinforcement
Positive punishment (which you call correction)
Negative punishment

Whether stopping and unwanted behaviour right now or stopping a behaviour when a dog has disobeyed a command, giving a physical correction is positive punishment.

Dogs aren't willfully disobedient - they are either sufficiently trained or insufficiently trained to perform a command. If sufficiently trained, they will comply regardless, if insufficiently trained, they will comply intermittently until the command has been proofed well enough for reliable repetition.

Shock collars: Yes I use them, (as do a lot of my clients), and there is nothing "sad" about it, when done properly. It is a tool, nothing more, and like all tools is only as good/bad as the person holding the transmitter.
It's a tool designed to give physical discomfort remotely. There's no 'good' no matter how it's used.

How do you handle a dog which willfully disobeys a thoroughly trained command?
As said, 'willfully disobeys' is an emotive term that has no place in dog training. Commands are either conditioned sufficiently or they are not. If a dog disobeys a command, it's time for the trainer to rethink their training and backtrack to ensure that what they are teaching has been proofed well enough for the dog to be able to comply.
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Tang
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28-01-2013, 01:47 PM
Physical discomfort?

Reminds me of the old midwives who'd tell first time mums that labour would be 'uncomfortable'.

Pain/painful are the words I'd use (for both)
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Malpeki
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28-01-2013, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star View Post
One doesn't need to witness someone kicking a dog to be of the opinion that it's abusive and unpleasant physically, emotionally or both for the dog.

awww... so easy said!

before I wanted to answer something similar, but was struggling with that silly grammar
so I let it be

well, it just takes a heart and an healthy mind, for to know, that this is not right and cruelty of animals

but of course, people who are missing both of that, they will use an e-collar
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Firstlight
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28-01-2013, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by Malpeki View Post
didn't you get that of Minihaha?

ETA Like a number of other members here I have no interest in discussing this topic.
If you do a site search on the topic of e collars you will find a number of threads where they have been discussed in depth.
No I did not. for some reason the new posts on page 2 did not come up initially. When I saw this post of yours I went back and reloaded the page and now I can see those posts.

Minihaha provided some interesting information, but she did not address my question; probably because she had not seen it at the time she replied.

As to the other posts I missed: Jackbox post 11: A "good" shock would be one administered by a trainer who knows how to use the collar properly,i.e.,the trainer has put the dog in control of whether he gets corrected or not.The dog which has been properly collar-conditioned interprets the shock as a motivatorto do better next time. A "bad" shock would be one given by a person ignorant of proper use of the collar, the dog would have different interpretations in this case, all of them bad and harmful.

Wysiwyg #12: I am well-acquainted with Mr. Milner. I have read his books and worked with some dogs from his kennel. Lets just say that in my opinion he has espoused some "interesting" opinions on training and breeding. Clicker training has it's place, but it is not the be all/end all for all dogs and all disciplines. I find I can almost always learn something from any method (which again, is why I joined this forum!), even if it's only what not to do. Partnership is what it's all about, especially with a working dog. and re: your next post, I have no idea what you mean by "set up to beat the stim", are you referring to the third stage of training? As to your post #14, in my training there is a huge difference, and a critical one, in timing and use of an aversive in correction vs. punishment, and I very rarely if ever find it necessary to "punish" a dog.

Smokeybear #15: Congratulations on your success with your dogs! I am aware that many of you have been successful with positive-only methods, I am interested in learning how you have achieved that success, and in your personal experiences re: seeing an e-collar used.

Minihaha #16: Great reply, and I'm with you on almost all of it. You are totally on the mark re: reasons for failure, and correction would not be appropriate in any of those circumstances. We differ on your example of "avoiding" an undesirable behavior via leash and collar, which prevents the behavior, but does not really solve the problem. I would handle that differently,e.g., has the dog in question not been trained to stay or recall? Do you not think exposing a dog to sheep and then physically preventing him from acting on his genetic drive to chase/herd is a form of torture? I would train that boy up and put him to work! I am sorry you have chosen to not participate in the discussion, you have much to offer.

Malpeki and Tangutica: You have some strong opinions re: the e-collar, surely you can tell me how you arrived at them?
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