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brenda1
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18-07-2017, 07:29 AM
If a dog or come to that any other animal, trusts you then there should be no need for aversive training methods.
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Gnasher
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18-07-2017, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Miriam John View Post
He is like any other dog. They all are capable of more than we think they are, we just would need to give them the space they need to grow and be who they are.
I agree with you Miriam - if we lived in an ideal world, but we don't! if we allow our dogs to act naturally, to act as the wolf from whom they are descended, then there would be mayhem!

Take my old boy Hal, a wolf cross now long since passed over. He was as wolfy a dog as you could ever wish to meet - all he was interested in was sex! Couldn't care less about food of the nourishment kind. He would leave a juicy bone to go and investigate a pair of knickers waiting to go into the washing machine, or sniff a bicycle saddle at the pub or liberally goose a crotch! This is a dog "being who he is". I didn't care a fiddle whether he goosed me, but it caused a lot of offence rather understandably in polite society and that was not his only party trick. He could dig for the Olympics, so if visiting friends they took a very dim view to him unearthing their flowerbeds! I could go on for ever - I get your point, but in modern society we have to set the rules, boundaries and limitations for our dogs.
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Besoeker
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18-07-2017, 08:48 PM
I've been following this forum for a bit now.
One thing I have noted is that dogs - and owners - cover the whole spectrum.
Ours is very simple - just black and white.........

Slightly more seriously, I'm an older chap. I walk a lot and meet lots of dogs - and their owners. Some are constantly barking at their dogs, others struggle to hold them on the lead. That's not a walk, it's a battle that they do over and over again. Where's the pleasure in that?

And others where both owner and dog are laid back, comfortable with each other. As I have said before, I think it's a two way street. The owner learns what the dog wants/needs and the dog learns what the owner expects. Just a look, gesture, tone of voice.......I don't claim to be in any way to be knowledgeable. Just observations from my own dog and those of others.
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Losos
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19-07-2017, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Besoeker View Post
I don't claim to be in any way to be knowledgeable. Just observations from my own dog and those of others.
Yes, that's all it takes, it's not rocket science, but still so many of the two legged humans try to relate with dogs like they do with other humans. They think that what works for humans will work for dogs as well.

If one has any intelligence at all (and I accept that with humans that is a big 'if' ) then one should start with the fact that dogs are NOT humans and their morals and desires are very often quite different from humans.

Science researchers like to publish articles in lofty academic publications about dogs which always give the impression the author knows exactly what a dog wants and their desires. HOW do they know OK some tests will show certain behaviours, but none are 100% since we are basically different creatures who just happen to (usually) get along together and who in pre-history were able to benefit each other. (Hunting, guarding the cave etc.)
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Miriam John
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20-07-2017, 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I agree with you Miriam - if we lived in an ideal world, but we don't! if we allow our dogs to act naturally, to act as the wolf from whom they are descended, then there would be mayhem!

Take my old boy Hal, a wolf cross now long since passed over. He was as wolfy a dog as you could ever wish to meet - all he was interested in was sex! Couldn't care less about food of the nourishment kind. He would leave a juicy bone to go and investigate a pair of knickers waiting to go into the washing machine, or sniff a bicycle saddle at the pub or liberally goose a crotch! This is a dog "being who he is". I didn't care a fiddle whether he goosed me, but it caused a lot of offence rather understandably in polite society and that was not his only party trick. He could dig for the Olympics, so if visiting friends they took a very dim view to him unearthing their flowerbeds! I could go on for ever - I get your point, but in modern society we have to set the rules, boundaries and limitations for our dogs.
When I say giving a dog space to find their own way, I don't mean not setting boundaries; boundaries and limits are a natural part of life and something we all have to come to terms with in some way, whether we are "owned" by someone or not. What I mean is that I've noticed that when I can treat my dog in a respectful way and treat him more as a companion and a friend rather than my lesser subject, he responds by being more respectful towards me and we have a better relationship. Given the right balance in life, something that I agree is very challenging to give in this society, dogs can learn how to live in a way that is respectful and considerate of the whole picture, and understand how their actions affect those around them, without needing to be "programmed".

Dogs pick up on the individualistic and obsessive way our society is today, and they have adapted to live that way. What we see in our dogs, the way they seem inhibited and unable to act sovereign, is an effect of living in a society that has no continuum, no community mindedness. It is something that we have had to adapt and cope with also, and it is no more natural for us than it is for them. The obsessive behaviors you saw in your wolf dog I believe were symptoms of this; a probably unconscious yearning for deeper connection, and an inability to get there. Not the fault of any dog caretaker, just a coping mechanism to deal with society's unnatural restrictions.
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Gnasher
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20-07-2017, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Miriam John View Post
When I say giving a dog space to find their own way, I don't mean not setting boundaries; boundaries and limits are a natural part of life and something we all have to come to terms with in some way, whether we are "owned" by someone or not. What I mean is that I've noticed that when I can treat my dog in a respectful way and treat him more as a companion and a friend rather than my lesser subject, he responds by being more respectful towards me and we have a better relationship. Given the right balance in life, something that I agree is very challenging to give in this society, dogs can learn how to live in a way that is respectful and considerate of the whole picture, and understand how their actions affect those around them, without needing to be "programmed".

Dogs pick up on the individualistic and obsessive way our society is today, and they have adapted to live that way. What we see in our dogs, the way they seem inhibited and unable to act sovereign, is an effect of living in a society that has no continuum, no community mindedness. It is something that we have had to adapt and cope with also, and it is no more natural for us than it is for them. The obsessive behaviors you saw in your wolf dog I believe were symptoms of this; a probably unconscious yearning for deeper connection, and an inability to get there. Not the fault of any dog caretaker, just a coping mechanism to deal with society's unnatural restrictions.
I agree and we did try to roll with the punches as much as we possibly could within the bounds of social acceptance. We trained him by taking him to pubs at the age of 6 weeks, placing him on a beer barrel used as a table in the bar of our favourite hostelry where he sat safely away from hostile germs and learned how wonderful human society was. As a little fluffy bundle of mischief he attracted enormous attention of course, and this is mainly how we socialised him and removed that wolf fear of all things bipedal. We were then left with the perfect dog for us - highly intelligent, naughty, wilful, aloof, disobedient unless it suited him to obey and an absolute character. But you cannot take the wolf out of the dog in my opinion - people try, but at the end of the day a chihuahua is still directly descended from the wolf and bears many wolf characteristics and behaviours.

So if that is what you mean by sovereignty then I accept that - a dog's right to be a dometisticated "wolf" within certain limits and boundaries.
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Besoeker
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20-07-2017, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Losos View Post
Yes, that's all it takes, it's not rocket science, but still so many of the two legged humans try to relate with dogs like they do with other humans. They think that what works for humans will work for dogs as well.

If one has any intelligence at all (and I accept that with humans that is a big 'if' ) then one should start with the fact that dogs are NOT humans and their morals and desires are very often quite different from humans.
I pretty much agree with that. But a little addendum if I may?
I think many owners either don't expect or don't accept the commitment that goes with dog ownership. Bit like having kids. I was a single father of three. At least with the dog, I don't have iron his school uniform......
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Interstellar
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22-09-2017, 12:40 AM
I use balanced training methods because, as much as force free trainers would like to insist otherwise, R+ did not work for my dog despite months of hard work - literal blood, sweat, and tears. In fact, my reluctance to step outside of my comfort zone and try something new almost led to her being euthanized.

I am glad that I opened my mind and gave consideration to a different approach. As a result my dog is still with me to this day, we are bonded more than ever, and she is no longer a bite risk. If I could rewind, the only thing I'd do differently is prevent the heartache and mucking about that was caused by looking at aversives as a "last resort."
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Fipps
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31-10-2017, 09:25 AM
"Media Pushing "purely Positive" methods..Where is the Balanced approach?"

I don't know if this marathon post has gone off topic or not, but, I thought to post this vid link on negative reinforced behaviour.
Please Note:
Read the short B F Skinner quote at the beginning of this video because B F Skinner was the originator of the reinforcement theory of learning.
There are two reinforcers in that theory, 'Positive' & 'negative', the main part of the video illustrates 'negative reinforced' behaviours......in lay terms, they are any behaviours we learn not to do.Hope this post does not interupt other stuff going on:

B F Skinner Translated, Negative Reinforced Behaviours: Avoidance Responses To Aversive Stimuli.
.
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CaroleC
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31-10-2017, 10:54 AM
A new identity methinks, but your methods remain consistent.
Sorry, I'm all argued out with this one.
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