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Dobermann
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13-03-2011, 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by 3dognight View Post
heres somthing else to think about ...how much pain is involved in your regular collers and leash...using the neck to gain controll...hummmm...example...your dog pulls,to the point were they are coughing and gagging....you are standing still,your dog juts off and comes to the end of the leash....is that pain....i feel it is,but when you use electicity,its something new.....i feel there is some amountof pain involved in training dogs....no matter how soft you are .i hate the fact that im forced to teather my dog to me....no collars,unless im in public..
Well if that is happening you take a step back in training and go from there - spend the time training instead of thinking about walking distance. If thats a no-go you use tools such as a harness until you can get to the point of not needing it.
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Wysiwyg
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14-03-2011, 08:02 AM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
How many reasons do you want?

a doesn't realise that the inanimate collar causes the pain

b trust you not to hurt him (resists comment)

c has already associated walks with pleasure from his pre-shock days

d would rather put up with the pain for the sake of getting out for his walk

e, f, g, h etc - a hundred reasons, any of which could apply.

Dogs are so trusting. Unfortunately, we often abuse that trust
Yes - I used to use choke chains on my dogs (this was when I was a teenager/young adult) and I did use them harshly which I now bitterly regret but my dogs never minded having them on.

I don't think a person can ever say "he knows the collar causes pain, but he still lets me put it on, so it can't be that bad".

It's also highly probable that he has no idea that the collar it what is causing the pain, esp. as it will be concentrated in one part and the collar itself does not make a noise (e.g. no jangling).

There are some perverse gundog trainers in the US who want the dog to know that the pain comes from them, but that is something else and is, I believe, related to the "dominance" argument.

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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14-03-2011, 08:14 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
....

We have a Dogtra, which is at the top end of the market quality-wise. ....

... The "stim" that you receive causes the muscles to involuntarily jerk, so the reason a dog reacts to a high level stim is because it is surprised by such a sensation without having any idea where it has come from. (Wys: I would strongly dispute that the dog reacts out of surprise and not pain - the "they are reacting out of surprise" argument is part of the marketing/"reassuring" that shock collar promoters tend to tell prospective users).

If you want to describe this as pain, then yes, it is painful, but I prefer to describe it as very uncomfortable because, as a dog, you of course have no idea why the muscles in your neck are suddenly jerking.

...
Excuse me for snipping this, but I wanted to just show the pertinent bits relevant to the original question of "how painful is a shock collar"?

Gnasher did experience discomfort/pain, although states that the preferable term would be, in her opinion, discomfort.

I'd like to just put this other person's experience here to balance that, partly because this experience is also of the same brand of collar, a Dogtra, and top range.

Here is the other experience:


http://r-plusdogtraining.info/shock.htm

(You have to scroll down slightly to get the report and also comments by Cathy about the self test).

A report of my shock collar self-test:

"I used a Dogtra 200 NCP Gold. It has a rheostat dial. I used the back of my arm so that the skin wouldn't be too sensitive, such as a dog's skin might not be. I could feel nothing when the dial was at zero, which makes sense as one way to turn it "off". I had to work my courage up for a long time to do this test. I considered the statement that the shock collar at low levels feels like a tickle or a tap, so I first tried about a 5 out of 100 (max). I felt nothing. I then set the dial higher in small increments.


I could feel nothing until the setting of 20. Then I felt a sharp pain, like being stuck with a hot needle. There was a definite feeling of heat. The pain was sharp, a point sensation. It did not feel pleasant, and it did not feel neutral. It felt absolutely nothing like a "tap" as in a tap on the shoulder, which would be a blunt, non-painful sensation. Importantly, at the lowest level that I could detect the stimulus, I perceived the feeling as pain and not as another kind of physical sensation.

I went higher on the rheostat and got up to 40 before I couldn't make myself go any higher. At that point, the sharpness of the feeling was greater and the sense of heat was greater. But by 40 there was also a feeling of electrical current. I got the familiar buzzing feeling that you might remember if you've ever touched a live wire.

In other words, I definitely perceived the feeling as shock, not tap or a tickle.

My skin started to tingle between the live electrode point and the ground point. Clearly a current was travelling between the two points on the shock collar, and it seemed to be travelling not only on the skin but in the muscle. I suspect it radiates out in an electromagnetic field pattern between the two points. Interestingly, I did not know which point was which on the Dogtra, as the two points appear the same, until I applied the shock to myself. In the Tritronics model, the ground point is black and the live point is colored according to the level of intensity of the shock each point type (5 in all) delivers.."

(end)

Different people and dogs will feel the "shock" or "stim" differently, it won't be the same for everyone. But it is painful.




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Meg
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14-03-2011, 09:43 AM
The stim setting does not give an electric shock, it causes a similar reaction to static electricity when you touch your car or a lift button and you get a sting. It isn't even that painful - having tried the collar on myself - I would compare it to using a Slendertone machine. The "stim" that you receive causes the muscles to involuntarily jerk, so the reason a dog reacts to a high level stim is because it is surprised by such a sensation without having any idea where it has come from
I think it is impossible to quantify how painful a shock collar may be to each individual using it, there are too many variable factors involved in what contributes to causing what we describe as 'pain'.


To give an example most people would say acupuncture is pretty painless, after a couple of minutes of having acupuncture applied to my thumb I experienced excruciating pain and was unable to continue the treatment. I also found the sensation caused by a TENS unit to be unbearable.

I think it is pretty pointless for any human to state they have tried a collar on themselves and found it only caused a mild discomfort therefore every individual using a collar will experience the same sensation.

So for me the answer to 'how painful is a shock collar' is we can't know, and that should be reason enough not to subject any animal to having to wear one.
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Tassle
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14-03-2011, 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
I think it is impossible to quantify how painful a shock collar may be to each individual using it, there are too many variable factors involved in what contributes to causing what we describe as 'pain'.


To give an example most people would say acupuncture is pretty painless, after a couple of minutes of having acupuncture applied to my thumb I experienced excruciating pain and was unable to continue the treatment. I also found the sensation caused by a TENS unit to be unbearable.

I think it is pretty pointless for any human to state they have tried a collar on themselves and found it only caused a mild discomfort therefore every individual using a collar will experience the same sensation.
Yes - I found it awful - and I don't usually mind needles!

Poor Tassle - her muscles contracted so much they bent the needles (needless today we did not carry on!)
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Wysiwyg
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14-03-2011, 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post

.....

I think it is pretty pointless for any human to state they have tried a collar on themselves and found it only caused a mild discomfort therefore every individual using a collar will experience the same sensation.

So for me the answer to 'how painful is a shock collar' is we can't know, and that should be reason enough not to subject any animal to having to wear one.
That's the crux of it all really, isn't it? I agree, Mini.

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Chris
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14-03-2011, 10:09 AM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
Yes - I found it awful - and I don't usually mind needles!
I found acupuncture very, very uncomfortable too and, as I'm phobic about needles, covered my face so as not to know when they were being inserted. Didn't make any difference - they hurt!
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smokeybear
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14-03-2011, 10:15 AM
My dogs and I have had acupuncture and neither of us were bothered.
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Lionhound
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14-03-2011, 10:43 AM
I think if you are willing to inflict an electric collar on your dog you should be willing to wear one as well so when you shock your dog you recieve exactly the same shock.

I wonder if people would be as willing to use them then?
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Gnasher
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14-03-2011, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Lionhound View Post
I think if you are willing to inflict an electric collar on your dog you should be willing to wear one as well so when you shock your dog you recieve exactly the same shock.

I wonder if people would be as willing to use them then?
yup, I agree, which is why both OH and myself have tested it - and because we have bare skin, unlike my double coated furbabies, we can achieve a far better contact and therefore get a "stronger" reaction.

On the highest setting, it is like the punch that you receive from a slendertone machine, it is most uncomfortable, but I would not describe it as pain. To the dog though, who has no idea that it is coming, I fully admit that on the highest setting it is probably extremely unpleasant, but the only reaction from Ben on the two occasions that he had a zap, he yelped, but otherwise was unhurt. He came straight back to OH for titbits, and he got the message. Since then, he has NEVER run away, or run off, he has and I have already described had to have a few rumbles with the vibration pager over the weekend, not for running off, but for being a bit over the top in his protection of Gucci. He is very protective of Little Man, and started to get slightly rough with a bitch staffie cross weimeraner, so OH gave him a rumble. Today, he has been exemplary apparently. Walked past the sheep field which is now occupied with lambing ewes (hole in the fence has been wired up) and both Ben and Tai totally ignored them.

As the days roll by, ben just goes from strength to strength. I can do anything I want to him now, even groom his tail, which he HATES and would turn on you if you tried to do that. If he was so traumatised by the e collar, he would not be the calm, obedient, loving, fantastic dog that we have. He has even stopped jumping up on the bed in the morning now, but waits until he is invited. He and Tai now take it in turns, plus the cat and Gucci pile in as well!

I am just so pleased that my beloved Ben can run free, safely, and we no longer have to constantly worry when he goes out of our line of vision that he is not going to come back, and what is he doing. Everyone has commented on how much calmer and more relaxed the dog is, all our pub friends, the post lady, our neighbours, everyone who knew Ben before.

I am sorry that I have failed in achieving my goal - of trying to demonstrate that used correctly and carefully, only for really severe intractable problems. I just wish you could all see before and after videos of my Ben, but we don't have a video camera.
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