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Adam P
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Adam P is offline  
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16-02-2011, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by Dawes Paws View Post
this is a genuine question, i believe someone once said, "in order to defeat our enemy, we must first understand them" no idea who lol, may have even made it up!!
Anyway I want to know how aversives are used in every day training, why you choose that particular method and why an averise rather than an R+ method.
so for those of you who regularly use tools such as e-collar, check chains or prong collars, how would you teach:
Sit,
Down
Recall
Wait/stay
Leave
Heel

For each behaviour, i want to know, what method you use, be it an R+ or an aversive, which tool you use to implement it, i.e: toys/treats or prong and why you choose that above other methods. I also want to know how long you would use the aversive for? do you use them on your own dogs,? and is it only whilst teaching or on a regular basis, to "remind them"?
If you dont use aversive's to train any of the listed behaviours, then when and why do you use them. If you can teach everything without aversives in the first place (behaviours listed are the foundation to many behaviours) then why choose aversives simply because a behaviour has become exagerated.
Lastly; what will you use to train the dog if/when such things as e collars and prongs are banned?!
Like I said, genuine question, trying to understand why you guys do what you do, in the hope that if we can understand you, then perhaps you could begin to stand R+ trainers a little more.
I use e collars mostly, but the training still involves reward. Basically each time the dog does the right behaviour it is rewarded.

The method I use with e collar uses the e collar sensation as negative reinforcement. This is simialr to pressure and release training with horses. The stim is pressure, stopping is the release.

Training behaviours

For each of the position type behaviours (come,heel,sit,down ect) I start with the dog on lead, I give the command and use the stim (working level) and guide the dog into the position. So move the dog towards me for recall/heel or manouver the dog into the sit/down. When the dog steps towards or begins to down for example I stop the stim, praise and give a food reward (toys too).
I then repeat. Once the behaviour is going well I refine it into what I want, e;g proper heel ect.

I'm basically shaping with pos and neg reinforcement.

For stationary commands I will add the word stay to the position, move away a little then come back and reward. If the dog breaks I will stim, repeat the comamnd and guide the dog into the behaviour. Just build up distance gradually.

Leave is basically ''leave'' stim pull dog away from food ect.

How long to teach, most dogs get stuff very quickly e;g session or two, they may require enforcement and reminders for longer, especially when distraction proofing. I always reward successful behaviours with food/praise/toys or premack.

I do this with my own and clients dogs, I make no distinction.

I often come across dogs who already know a command but choose to ignore it when distracted/insufficently motivated. In these cases I will simply enforce the command as above.

I hope thats not to long

Adam
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Tupacs2legs
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16-02-2011, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
I use e collars mostly, but the training still involves reward. Basically each time the dog does the right behaviour it is rewarded.

The method I use with e collar uses the e collar sensation as negative reinforcement. This is simialr to pressure and release training with horses. The stim is pressure, stopping is the release.

Training behaviours

For each of the position type behaviours (come,heel,sit,down ect) I start with the dog on lead, I give the command and use the stim (working level) and guide the dog into the position. So move the dog towards me for recall/heel or manouver the dog into the sit/down. When the dog steps towards or begins to down for example I stop the stim, praise and give a food reward (toys too).
I then repeat. Once the behaviour is going well I refine it into what I want, e;g proper heel ect.

I'm basically shaping with pos and neg reinforcement.

For stationary commands I will add the word stay to the position, move away a little then come back and reward. If the dog breaks I will stim, repeat the comamnd and guide the dog into the behaviour. Just build up distance gradually.

Leave is basically ''leave'' stim pull dog away from food ect.

How long to teach, most dogs get stuff very quickly e;g session or two, they may require enforcement and reminders for longer, especially when distraction proofing. I always reward successful behaviours with food/praise/toys or premack.

I do this with my own and clients dogs, I make no distinction.

I often come across dogs who already know a command but choose to ignore it when distracted/insufficently motivated. In these cases I will simply enforce the command as above.

I hope thats not to long

Adam
you really make my stomach turn.... imo u should not be allowed near animals !!
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ClaireandDaisy
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16-02-2011, 12:59 PM
That is so truly sad. To give a defenceless dog an electric shock if it approaches food.
Is it not time to think about Adam`s membership of this forum. He really doesn`t meet the basic criteria.
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Dawes Paws
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16-02-2011, 01:02 PM
I was really hoping you were going to tell us you don't use an e collar to teach a new command but only use one to prevent unwanted behaviour! why do you feel that causing a dog "discomfort" is a better way of teaching than; lure and reward, i feel lure and reward is much more beneficial, completely hands off and allows the dog to make the decision for itself, the only consequence being that it gets rewarded with toy/treat.
I will not believe that it"stimulation" as you call it will get better or faster results than a lure and reward method.
Why give the dog an unpleasant experience at all? you must agree that the e collar is unpleasant for the dog, so why would you want him to associate you and trainin as an unpleasant experience?
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rune
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16-02-2011, 01:03 PM
My goodness---what an AWFUL person to do that to teach something that is SO easy to teach.

As I said, he has never been a dog trainer.

rune
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ClaireandDaisy
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16-02-2011, 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by Dawes Paws View Post
.... so why would you want him to associate you and trainin as an unpleasant experience?
because he gets commission?
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Adam P
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16-02-2011, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by Dawes Paws View Post
I was really hoping you were going to tell us you don't use an e collar to teach a new command but only use one to prevent unwanted behaviour! why do you feel that causing a dog "discomfort" is a better way of teaching than; lure and reward, i feel lure and reward is much more beneficial, completely hands off and allows the dog to make the decision for itself, the only consequence being that it gets rewarded with toy/treat.
I will not believe that it"stimulation" as you call it will get better or faster results than a lure and reward method.
Why give the dog an unpleasant experience at all? you must agree that the e collar is unpleasant for the dog, so why would you want him to associate you and trainin as an unpleasant experience?
I find its easier for the dog to learn and be reliable via this approach than with lure and reward alone, or lure and reward combined with e collar corrections for not obeying.

Btw they associate you and obeying you with the stim stopping e'g release of pressure. They also get food/toys/praise so get lots of pay off.
Adam
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sarah1983
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16-02-2011, 01:14 PM
It really doesn't seem fair to use pain or discomfort or whatever you want to call it to TEACH a behaviour.
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Adam P
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16-02-2011, 01:20 PM
As I say you can use a correction based approach.

E;G call dog, dog ignores, say ''leave/no'', stim, dog complies, reward.

My experience is things are clearer to the dog if you teach with the aversive initially then go onto correction based.

I usually go onto correction based within the first session.

Adam
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dogdragoness
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16-02-2011, 01:20 PM
Basic commands I tought with toys believe it or not. With Josie, my young one she practically teaches herself, she us just looking for direction & if she is given it, she happily minds most of the time now & it getting better with every day.

The one thing she still sometimes does is not leave the barn cat alone (of course I'm convenced this cat thinks he is a dog as he seeks out their company & otherwise puts himself into situations where he can be harasses/harmed lol) luckily I tought 'leave it" because she was taking everything she could off the ground & into her mouth it went, so for the initial learning of command (along with come) I used treats, but phased those out gradually with praise & once they know the commands meaning they are expected to do it. So if she goes for the cat, or tries to pick up something that will hurt her, yes I will use an adversive (which is either a very gruff 'leave it!' & sometimes a leash pop if she doesng respond). Luckily I don't have to do that hardly anymore because the utterence of 'no' or leave it' will send her bounding back to me for direction.

My older dog, Izze is a tad different. She is a hard nosed working dog that is tough & stubborn as she day is long so I admit I used quite a few adversives with her. She is smart & responsive but sometimes she plays the 'do I really want to listen to mom' game so I always keep a 'do what I say or else' attitude with her. But she he happiest when she is preforming a task, so I keep her busy. The good thing about her is show her a task you want of her & she will try to do it.
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