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Tassle
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19-10-2010, 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Btw ime many dogs find just wearing a halti extremely aversive (rubbing head shaking ect) I've never had a dog react negatively to wearing a pprong or using one as a control device.

Adam
How could they??

Bit like a Harness - the dog may not like wearing it -but cannot fight against is or remove it.
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Adam P
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19-10-2010, 09:17 PM
They could scratch at it/roll on their backs/run away when it appears though couldn't they!

Adam
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Tassle
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19-10-2010, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
They could scratch at it/roll on their backs/run away when it appears though couldn't they!

Adam
....they might try backing out....once....

.....as it is probably associated with the only decent interaction the dog has with outside - I expect you would get and over excited (read 'stressed') reaction when it appears or a calm (read 'shut down') reaction due to the pain that is caused.

People will see what they want to......if the dog behaves in the way that you like - you will not take into account what goes on inside.

Will not go there with you again - I do not agree with inflicting pain to control dogs. Period.
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airedaleowner
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19-10-2010, 09:51 PM
i usually use aa clip collar and lead when i go on walks but use a slip lead for the round the corner walks as its easier to grab and sort in the morning ect.

hate those prong ones, looks painful

slips and choke chains i wouldnt use for long walks on really pully dogs but round the corner ones i think are ok. Arthur seems pretty happy in his so i still use it.
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Gnasher
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19-10-2010, 09:59 PM
In my opinion, chokes do not work - so why use them? Far better I have found with my chosen type of dogs, sled-type northern breeds, notorious for pulling on the lead, is to use a horse lead rope clipped to an ordinary collar of your choice. Keep the lead slack, the more you pull on the lead with this type of dog, the more they will pull, and believe me they are ten times stronger than any human! Keep the lead nice and relaxed and loose, but if and when they jerk forward, jerk back with the lead, at the same time telling them no, or whatever noise or word you wish to use, and then release immediately. This has far more effect than constantly hauling them on a choke chain or slip lead.
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Crysania
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19-10-2010, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
If someone goes to view a rescue dog, walks it and gets dragged around they will be put off. Maybe because they think its not fixable and maybe becuase they know it is but don't wnat to have to spend months doing so.
If its on a prong and doesn't pull not only do they get a better impression of the dog but if they buy it and it starts to pull they can buy a prong that will stop the pulling.
Prongs are available in pet stores in the usa and reasonably cheap I believe.

Btw ime many dogs find just wearing a halti extremely aversive (rubbing head shaking ect) I've never had a dog react negatively to wearing a pprong or using one as a control device.

Adam
And you think that seeing the dog in what looks like a medieval torture device is going to help? LOL yeah ok.

I've seen plenty of dogs yelp when on a prong. And they CAN'T rub...it would hurt MORE. A little common sense goes a long way.
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wilbar
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20-10-2010, 08:18 AM
Prong collars ~ absolutely no way, ever. Dangerous, painful & don't teach the dog anything other than the experience of pain on what should be an enjoyable experience.

Choke chains ~ no way, ever. The chances of injury are high, (& I've met several vet nurses who have shown x-rays & other evidence of the damage caused by these devises). But the same injuries can occur with constant pullers just on a lead attached to an ordinary collar.

Half-checks ~ maybe, sometimes, with specific dogs that are likely to back out.

Harnesses that spread the force through the chest & shoulders, don't put undue strain on delicate soft tissue around the neck & throat area, that are properly fitted & don't chafe ~ by far the best way to go & will greatly reduce the risk of injury to the dog.

But nothing beats a specific training programme to teach pullers how to walk on a loose lead. This is something that all puppy owners should do from the start but I appreciate it is much harder with an older dog where the pulling behaviour has become ingrained. This will require more intensive work & I can see that this would be a problem for rescue centres where the staff don't have the time to do this, or volunteer dog walkers don't how or aren't consistent.

But in all the time I've helped at the Dogs Trust I don't think pulling on the lead, on it's own, has ever deterred a prospective owner. Most people that don't have the time or don't feel physically able to cope with a puller, would go for smaller, older dogs that don't pull or are easily controlled anyway. And those that want the larger, younger & stronger dogs will try to do something about the pulling with help from the staff on the correct training methods.

In no case do I see the need for prong collars, choke chains or any other form of physical abuse.
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Tassle
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20-10-2010, 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
Prong collars ~ absolutely no way, ever. Dangerous, painful & don't teach the dog anything other than the experience of pain on what should be an enjoyable experience.

Choke chains ~ no way, ever. The chances of injury are high, (& I've met several vet nurses who have shown x-rays & other evidence of the damage caused by these devises). But the same injuries can occur with constant pullers just on a lead attached to an ordinary collar.

Half-checks ~ maybe, sometimes, with specific dogs that are likely to back out.

Harnesses that spread the force through the chest & shoulders, don't put undue strain on delicate soft tissue around the neck & throat area, that are properly fitted & don't chafe ~ by far the best way to go & will greatly reduce the risk of injury to the dog.

But nothing beats a specific training programme to teach pullers how to walk on a loose lead. This is something that all puppy owners should do from the start but I appreciate it is much harder with an older dog where the pulling behaviour has become ingrained. This will require more intensive work & I can see that this would be a problem for rescue centres where the staff don't have the time to do this, or volunteer dog walkers don't how or aren't consistent.

But in all the time I've helped at the Dogs Trust I don't think pulling on the lead, on it's own, has ever deterred a prospective owner. Most people that don't have the time or don't feel physically able to cope with a puller, would go for smaller, older dogs that don't pull or are easily controlled anyway. And those that want the larger, younger & stronger dogs will try to do something about the pulling with help from the staff on the correct training methods.

In no case do I see the need for prong collars, choke chains or any other form of physical abuse.
Agree with what you have said - but with your work at DT - how do you walk resident dogs who are scared?

I know many a dog who has backed out of a harness
(thats if you can get one on them in the first place!!)
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rune
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20-10-2010, 08:38 AM
Originally Posted by Crysania View Post
Adam they do not fix any problems. Period. They will stop some dogs from pulling because they hurt, but take the collar off and they'll pull again. The only way to stop the dog from pulling and to hopefully make it more adoptable is to train it to not pull. Prongs do not train. They're a stop-gap measure. Training actually takes some work and a little time (I've been amazed at how little time it's taken to train some dogs not to pull on a standard flat buckle collar).


Adam doesn't understand the concepts of training, time or patience.

He would rather use a prong collar, e collar, rattle can or anything else to prove he is in 'control'. Its a symptom little man syndrome----either physical or mental!

rune
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wilbar
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20-10-2010, 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
Agree with what you have said - but with your work at DT - how do you walk resident dogs who are scared?

I know many a dog who has backed out of a harness
(thats if you can get one on them in the first place!!)
Depends on why they're scared & what they're scared of really. Any dogs that are scared of going out, or very fearful of other dogs, or traffic, won't be going out on walks with volunteer dog walkers!! They would usually be undergoing desensitisation & counter-conditioning behavioural therapy to help them cope, so this would necessarily mean avoiding anything that scared them, other than on the carefully controlled programme.

The rescue centre has a couple of fields & various sized runs that are used for physical exercise instead & I don't think the staff would ever let inexperienced volunteer dog walkers go near these dogs until they were making good progress.

The whole idea of the voluntary dog walking scheme is to enrich & improve a dog's time in kennels, so only the dogs that enjoy their walks, that enjoy meeting new people or need to get out for some R&R because they are very stressed in kennels, would be walked by volunteers.

Occasionally accidents might happen, & a dog backs out of a harness, or a walker manages to drop the lead, or an out of control strange dog causes mayhem ~ but these incidents are few & far between & could equally happen to the staff as well as the volunteers. Very strong pullers may have double leads or sometimes haltis if absolutely essential & certaimly these dogs wouldn't be walked by a volunteer physically unable to cope.

The regular volunteers, that the staff trust, & that have a lot of experience, are sometimes asked to help with "problem" dogs. But this is usually the volunteers that they know will be visiting several times a week, that are sensible "dog" people & the staff know they will be able to do something with the dog that won't interfere with any behavioural therapy.

With dogs that are scared or resist a harness or muzzle, they have specific programmes to introduce them to the dog in positive ways that don't cause fear or panic.
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