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MerlinsMum
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30-07-2009, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
Brilliant. Im gonna use that from now on!
You're welcome.
Can't beat the connection and feel of a real rein/s in your hand...
One drives a car, but handles a dog.
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Lizzy23
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31-07-2009, 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
I have arrived at this thread too late methinks....
Not at all, Ramble, like i said before wasn't really asking for advice was asking a general question of how people would deal with teaching Moll recall, bearing in mind what i said.

Tassle you're also right with the waiting bit, When Moll first arrived she was more worried about losing us than anything else she was a nervous little thing and her recall at that time was ok, it was only when she had been here about 4 months or so that we realised we had a real problem, right about the time she nearly caused a pile up on a road after she had escaped thats when we went for proffesional help as what we had done with Millie who also had poor recall when she came just hadn't worked. She needs to work which is why for her we trained with her drive and went the Gundog route
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Mahooli
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31-07-2009, 07:35 AM
I think there are several reasons why recall starts to fail and all are down to the mistake of the handler
1) Recall hasn't been reliably instilled into the dog initially
2) Owners forget to use the recall command and just keep shouting the dogs name
3) The walk routine becomes very predictable and the dog recognises at what point in the walk they will be recalled and put on a lead
4) It simply isn't as rewarding being with the owner as having a romp in a field!

For number 1) owners just need to put a bit more effort into training a recall in ALL situations, not just the village hall in classes. Number 2) amazes peoploe when they start re-using their recall command rather than the dogs name and the dog actually does as it's told! For 3) this is where continued training comes in and dogs should be called and released, called and put on a lead for a few paces then let off at random intervals throughout the walk so the dog never knows when it is just coming in for a treat then away or being put on a lead for a bit. For number 4) you just need to ensure you have something that really motivates your dog whether it be food/praise or toy based.
Becky
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Lizzy23
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31-07-2009, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
I think there are several reasons why recall starts to fail and all are down to the mistake of the handler
1) Recall hasn't been reliably instilled into the dog initially
2) Owners forget to use the recall command and just keep shouting the dogs name
3) The walk routine becomes very predictable and the dog recognises at what point in the walk they will be recalled and put on a lead
4) It simply isn't as rewarding being with the owner as having a romp in a field!

For number 1) owners just need to put a bit more effort into training a recall in ALL situations, not just the village hall in classes. Number 2) amazes peoploe when they start re-using their recall command rather than the dogs name and the dog actually does as it's told! For 3) this is where continued training comes in and dogs should be called and released, called and put on a lead for a few paces then let off at random intervals throughout the walk so the dog never knows when it is just coming in for a treat then away or being put on a lead for a bit. For number 4) you just need to ensure you have something that really motivates your dog whether it be food/praise or toy based.
Becky
Agreed totally, and very easy with a dog you have had from a pup, not so easy with a stray rescue, who A you don't know there name, so have to give a new name and B has never been taught, that food, toys, treats are great things and worth coming back for, and c from the looks has been left to do what they please for the first 8 months to a year of their life, so you're trying to start training just as they are hitting their teenage months
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Jackie
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31-07-2009, 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23 View Post
Agreed totally, and very easy with a dog you have had from a pup, not so easy with a stray rescue, who A you don't know there name, so have to give a new name and B has never been taught, that food, toys, treats are great things and worth coming back for, and c from the looks has been left to do what they please for the first 8 months to a year of their life, so you're trying to start training just as they are hitting their teenage months
That's very true, it is easier to establish a recall from puppy hood, but not unattainable in an adult.... some great methods and advice already given.

I think as most have you have to establish and find out what motivates the dog at home in controlled situations before you jump in the deep end... there's no point on giving a dog a command if it does not understand it...

Have you tried a "whistle" this may work where your voice does not...

I think if the dog is not toy/food motivated , you need to find something that does...

What about you, have you tried hiding from view.

One thing I do, if my recall is failing.... is hide, or run the other way, shouting , flapping my arms (look like an albatross trying to take off ) anything that makes my dogs go..."what the ****" whats she up to , better go look!!!

I think Becky made a good point, is not to allow the dog to anticipate what and where things happen on the walk, you need to keep their mind on you, if the know at that bend they get let off, and put back on at the park gates, they will not be interested in what and where you are.

Confuse them with diversion.. if you have his attention on you at all times, you are one step nearer to a good recall.

P.S anther way to gain their attention is ..(works with horses too) is to bend down to the grown, and make as you have found something.. making nice coo"ing noises... its amazing what a nosey dog will do to come see what you have found..
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Mahooli
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31-07-2009, 08:07 AM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23 View Post
Agreed totally, and very easy with a dog you have had from a pup, not so easy with a stray rescue, who A you don't know there name, so have to give a new name and B has never been taught, that food, toys, treats are great things and worth coming back for, and c from the looks has been left to do what they please for the first 8 months to a year of their life, so you're trying to start training just as they are hitting their teenage months
But that is all part and parcel of dog training, fnding out what motivates your dog and what they can and can't do and work on that. It isn't always that simple with a puppy as each are individuals and you need to learn each time what it is that motivates them.
Becky
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Trouble
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31-07-2009, 08:07 AM
FWIW I would fall into the CM camp, and don't really get why the way I would train recall in any dog would be any different to the way anyone else would train recall.
Never had a springer so can't totally relate to your problem. However I have had a fairly wide variety of dogs over the years.
Some of my dogs have been with me from pups and some are private rehomes. They've all more or less been trained in the same way with their training being adapted to their individual needs.
With pups they are let off lead from day one, we practice recall throughout the walks and make ourselves as interesting and as unpredictable as possible. Obviously by the time they are allowed out they already know several commands. I have never used the command 'come' in my life. All my dogs recall to their name, and they recall fast. We have never limited the amount of time we are out, we never spend less than around 2 hours out and about even with pups, however the pups are not expected to keep going all that time we have lots of training sessions and rest built into the walks for the pups. We make our walks as varied and as enjoyable as possible, we chop and change direction randomly, duck behind trees and bushes without a word to the dogs and the dogs have to find us. We chop and change pace, suddenly breaking into a run, then dawdling, running and jumping logs and splashing in streams etc. etc. We usually walk as a couple so it's easy for one of us to disappear while the other keeps walking with the dogs, until they sense were missing and then told to 'go find', they are damn quick at finding us. They then learn to keep an eye on us rather than us constantly watching them and recalling them. Initially we reward with treats and praise, the treats are then fazed out until their only reward is finding you and praise. The rehomes have been trained in exactly the same way as the pups with a bit more effort required but not much to be honest. I'm not offering you advice, I don't know your dog, the question was how would I train recall, I've never had a problem with recall with any dog i've had it's one of the first things they learn and is practised all the time on walks regularly throughout their lives. I hardly ever use a lead on walks so they are trained to be obedient, to do what they are told when they are told, to come when I call them, to sit and stay when told and to leave whatever I tell them to. All our training is done in everyday situations with whatever distractions there are about, we don't build up the level of distractions, they are what they are from day one. Even my rehomes have been off lead before the end of their first walk with us. It's always worked for us, dunno what the blinkin eck it's got to do with CM though as he doesn't give pointers on recall training other than saying your dog should focus on you as the leader.
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Krusewalker
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31-07-2009, 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23 View Post
Agreed totally, and very easy with a dog you have had from a pup, not so easy with a stray rescue, who A you don't know there name, so have to give a new name and B has never been taught, that food, toys, treats are great things and worth coming back for, and c from the looks has been left to do what they please for the first 8 months to a year of their life, so you're trying to start training just as they are hitting their teenage months
I mean this in total respect, but woudnt Mahooli's breakdown re a dog's name scenario still apply to a situation like yours?
As you have owned him for 2 years now, so he would have known his name for some while?

As a rescue rehomer myself, i know it only takes a couple of weeks of solid use to teach a dog a new name.

Re the point about not being treat or toy trained when you got him - again, that may have applied 2 years ago?

Like i said in my first post, what sort of treats do you use and how do you use them, and have you tried bringing out a special toy thats just for training in the manner I described in my first post?

You are right that, statistically speaking, there are lots of male unneutered adolescent dogs in rescue between ages roughly 8 to 16 months, which havent received much in the way of training...this applies whether they were strays or hand overs .
But that doesnt, by automatic definition, mean they are exceptional or unusual when it comes to taking them thru a training programme.
You are playing catch up, granted, and you may have to work slightly harder, but they can still grasp the concepts as well as any dog.

I do understand your dog was nervous though - in that scenario, i would say what programme did you take him thru to deal with this, to make it easier for him to take toys and treats in training?
#Is he still so nervous after 2 years he wont work for toys or treats?

I too am not framed by CM one or the other when i look at your question

No offence intended in any of my post.
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JoedeeUK
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31-07-2009, 08:43 AM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23 View Post
Agreed totally, and very easy with a dog you have had from a pup, not so easy with a stray rescue, who A you don't know there name, so have to give a new name and B has never been taught, that food, toys, treats are great things and worth coming back for, and c from the looks has been left to do what they please for the first 8 months to a year of their life, so you're trying to start training just as they are hitting their teenage months
I've successfully trained a stray rescue & she was on the run for nearly a year, she was very nervous & frightened of everything & quite old(8 or 9)when I captured her(literally) It takes time, patience(masses of)finding what switched her on & use that to be the reward in training.

A friend has a lurcher, who was a stray(both of hers were)he was living on common land for months feeding himself, by catching hares(& I do mean hares)No one could get near him, but by using calming signals after a month he came to her & willingly gave up. He too is a hunter & has a usually good recall, unless he puts up a hare & then he will run himself to exhaustion trying to catch it. However he is only exercised where he cannot get on to a road & if my friend goes back to using calming signals he comes back. We have now found something recently that he will even give up the chase for & that can be used to stop him in his tracks. It has taken years, but it was worth it & not a long line, collar etc etc in sight !
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rune
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31-07-2009, 08:49 AM
Nothing quite prepares you for a nervy worried sprnger---- think it is because they are so clever and have such a strong instinct to hunt/search that they are IMO sometimes more difficult than some other dogs. They don't fall into a routine pattern of behaviour as easily as most collies do and they seem to to take longer to learn to trust.

I have several dogs who come and stay and most I will let off lead in the field which surrounds our house. The springer lab I have at the moment is a big time no, he simply won't come back once he has a scent----I did nearly fnd out the hard way but as he had a line on I got him back fast! OTOH the springer x collie who comes a lot is treated like one of mine and walks out wth us as well.However he is totally toy obsessed and will do an instant down for control as well.

Generally I just assume they will follow me and the other dogs.

Some dogs you just look at and know they won't recall and IME its usually lurchers, springers and terriers.

Sorry---rambled a bit ---just thoughts on recalls generally.

I think you get brownie points for managing to get a recall from the springer you describe!

rune
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