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katilea
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06-10-2012, 12:16 PM
All my crossbreeds have been healthy into old age and lived to 17. Family/friends with pedigree breeds have often encountered health issues at much younger ages and they haven't lived much past 10 - sometimes died before age 10 from genetic conditions relating to their breed. Just my experience with both.. never met an 'old dog' 16yrs + that was a pedigree in my 43 yrs.
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smokeybear
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06-10-2012, 12:23 PM
Was not the oldest dog (died at 29) a pedigree Sheepdog, Bluey of Australia?

And a Wirehaired Dachshund lived to 21 called Chanel?

To name but two.............
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06-10-2012, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by katilea View Post
. never met an 'old dog' 16yrs + that was a pedigree in my 43 yrs.
The beagle I grew up with was eventually pts at 17.
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katilea
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06-10-2012, 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
Was not the oldest dog (died at 29) a pedigree Sheepdog, Bluey of Australia?

And a Wirehaired Dachshund lived to 21 called Chanel?

To name but two.............
I don't know them so I didn't know they existed!.. but yes thats two.. I can think of 10 I knew personally of top of my head that were crossbreeds that lived to over 16!

I definitely think MORE crossbreeds live to a longer age and healthier at that age than most pedigree's especially these days.

I've been researching breeds for my next dog and most have at least 6 heredity health issues. The ones that don't are much rarer and harder to find and very expensive! A crossbreed is a much cheaper option for a fairly safe bet it will live to an old age healthily without needing to pay nearly a 1,000 for a 'healthier breed puppy'.

The problem today is people are breeding for money and not strictly for the health of the dogs. Often having several litters a year or selling more than one breed so money is always coming in from the puppies.
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smokeybear
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06-10-2012, 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by katilea View Post
I don't know them so I didn't know they existed!.. but yes thats two.. I can think of 10 I knew personally of top of my head that were crossbreeds that lived to over 16!

I definitely think MORE crossbreeds live to a longer age and healthier at that age than most pedigree's especially these days.

I've been researching breeds for my next dog and most have at least 6 heredity health issues. The ones that don't are much rarer and harder to find and very expensive! A crossbreed is a much cheaper option for a fairly safe bet it will live to an old age healthily without needing to pay nearly a 1,000 for a 'healthier breed puppy'.

The problem today is people are breeding for money and not strictly for the health of the dogs. Often having several litters a year or selling more than one breed so money is always coming in from the puppies.

My point was that for every case that can be cited for/against pedigrees the same exists for cross breeds.

Neither have the monopoly on health/illness.

What we THINK is surely not the issue? We may THINK God exists, that does not make it so.

There is no breed that does not have hereditary health issues (only those that as yet have not been discovered), just as HUMANS are not free from hereditary health issues.

Let us not make sweeping generalisations, not ALL people are breeding for financial gain.

Some are, some aren't.

Just as some mongrels are healthier than some pedigrees and some aren't.
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Jet&Copper
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06-10-2012, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
Fab post! Although I may now have to lie down in a darkened room as absorbing the meaning of words with more than two syllables can be a bit of an effort for someone like me without an "ology"!
oh we all know you got that post perfectly well!
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katilea
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06-10-2012, 12:55 PM
sorry I thought the question was:

"What are your THOUGHTS and is there any actual evidence out there to support either argument?"

my thoughts from my experience of both was that every crossbreed I had known had lived longer into old age, if every crossbreed I had known had been ill and lived short lives I may have concluded that Pedigrees were healthier!

If more people know more healthier crossbreeds that pedigree's isn't that evidence that's there's more healthier crossbreeds out there? or vice versa!
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smokeybear
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06-10-2012, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by katilea View Post
If more people know more healthier crossbreeds that pedigree's isn't that evidence that's there's more healthier crossbreeds out there? or vice versa!
Not really no.

Because it depends on what circles you move in.

I am exposed to far more pedigree dogs than I am crossbreeds due to the nature of the disciplines I am interested in.

Therefore I KNOW more healthier pedigrees than crossbreeds.

It's just pure logic.

ETA nearly forgot to mention a Weimaraner died last year at the age of 17.
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Jet&Copper
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06-10-2012, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
My point was that for every case that can be cited for/against pedigrees the same exists for cross breeds.

Neither have the monopoly on health/illness.

What we THINK is surely not the issue? We may THINK God exists, that does not make it so.

There is no breed that does not have hereditary health issues (only those that as yet have not been discovered), just as HUMANS are not free from hereditary health issues.

Let us not make sweeping generalisations, not ALL people are breeding for financial gain.

Some are, some aren't.

Just as some mongrels are healthier than some pedigrees and some aren't.
Yes precisely - we cannot say that as a mass generalisation one is healthier over the other. And of course health tested stock does not automatically mean that an individual or that population is "genetically fit"

I think earlier someone mentioned flatcoats being riddled with cancer yet another breed wasn't, and talked about COI's etc.

From a geneticists POV, there is no mystery surrounding why some breeds have specific genetically-predisposed defects running through the lines - sexual reproduction is known as the "genetic lottery for a very good reason. It is very simple - at some point in time, a germline mutation, or more likely several has occurred in the flatcoat lines that has rendered this population at an increased risk to specific types of cancer when compared to the general population (although is there a general population in dogs? Probably not).

Another breed may have a very low incidence of cancer - this does not mean that they are somehow healthier than flatcoats, all it means is that, pretty much by SHEER LUCK, there hasn't been the required combination of deleterious alleles existing in that population yet in order to increase the incidence of cancers in that closed population. But, for all we know, they are currently sitting on the brink, with many many recessive and homozygous alleles at various loci just waiting for that next germline mutation to push it over the edge, so to speak.

So, basically what I'm trying to get across is heterozygosity tends to be better for a population, inbreeding creates an accumulative deleterious effect to the population over time.

That said, as I mentioned originally, cancer is more often than not a somatic cell mutation, it was not inherited and will not be passed on to future generation - so in some cases inbreeding has naff all to do with it, in some cases inbreeding has everything to do with it. Simples eh!
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Jet&Copper
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06-10-2012, 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by katilea View Post
sorry I thought the question was:

"What are your THOUGHTS and is there any actual evidence out there to support either argument?"

my thoughts from my experience of both was that every crossbreed I had known had lived longer into old age, if every crossbreed I had known had been ill and lived short lives I may have concluded that Pedigrees were healthier!

If more people know more healthier crossbreeds that pedigree's isn't that evidence that's there's more healthier crossbreeds out there? or vice versa!
If we are talking health in terms of genetic fitness of a population, then animals that are outcrossed on a regular basis, as a rule, will be healthier - for reason I have already posted.

However, when people talk dogs, they tend to talk about actual individual dogs as opposed to an entire population, which is something you simply cannot make valid comparisons to.

A crossbreed could easily carry similar genetic defects to it's purebred cousins, it depends on the parentage of the dog, and of course environmental effects play a huge role in the health of a dog.....
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