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Meg
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27-07-2011, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Sorry my last post was a bit confusing
I was making two seperate points...

Re: the water sprayer...Yes you are correct, the best way is always to set it up remotely e.g use a hose and apply from a tap out of sight. hiding is good also, the trick is always to convince the dog "it was nothing to do with me!"
WT, So if the tap is out of sight of the dog and possibly the vegetable patch too, how do you know when the dog is in the vegetable patch if you can't see it Do you see it in there and tell it to sit and wait then run to the tap?

See also this post..
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...23#post2315123
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Lotsadogs
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27-07-2011, 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by sarah1983 View Post
I would guess at at least partly luck to be perfectly honest Denise. That method stops most dogs from doing it when somebody is around but a hell of a lot of dogs still do it when it's safe (ie nobody there).
I respect your experience, but it doesnt match my own. .

I have around 30 good friends with multiple dogs in most cases and to the best of my knowledge only one of them has to barricade the bin off!

If the majority of people on here do then I am stunned!

Hey ho, you live and learn.
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Lotsadogs
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27-07-2011, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Whoa no, hang on to your horses there
I never said "never".

What you describe is an EMERGENCY and if a puppy it presumably has not yet learnt "Leave it" so you do whatever it takes. Hopefullyremembering that some pups can be stubborn with giving things up, so tug of war might not be the best idea

I have to go have a very late lunch but hope to be back later. Just had to put that right first

Wys
x
I didn't say never did I? Maybe I did - its been a tough day.

I think that raiding the bin is an emergency as well. As are many things that an animal does for the very first time that is undesirable.

So what would you do then?
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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 03:37 PM
SB:Well in one particular case it was using a gundog slip lead! I am sure you remember the individual in question; a great great loss.
I do remember that one, and I agree it was a great loss and I know a large number of the members did, too. I was on the forum and also a private small chat forum with this person and there were a few issues, but this was the main one.

It was a long time ago - 6, 7, 8 years ago maybe? There's been many changes, different chairpeople and a revamp of the assessment (in fact the assessment is really good now, they should be proud of it).


Wys: I do hope they are not overly arrogant, though! I think to be a good trainer, one does need to keep some ability to be humble. One never knows everything, and one keeps learning ...
SB: A very good example of exactly what I was referring to in my original post!

Surely the above observations apply equally to dog trainers WITHIN the APDT.
I'd hope they'd apply to anyone who was a trainer, APDT or not. I'd hope that none of the trainers I respect, who are not in any organisation, believe they are so good that no-one else can judge them, though. That is what I meant. The inference is that they are better than anyone in the APDT, but the APDT is about pet dogs and owners. I'd be saddened if one of them suggested that they were way too good to be assessed by anyone in the APDT.
Nothing wrong with being humble.

Wys: It's hard for dog owners to know who to go to, this is the problem. Yes someone can be non APDT, but is that person going to use harsh methods or even use p.punishment where it is not necessary. Are they going to be up to date with behaviour?
SB: Why not, the APDT do not hold the monopoly on kind, effective and fair methods,
Who else goes as far as they do? If anyone does, that's great and I'd like to hear about them. COAPE are good too.

neither are they the only people who are committed to CPD.
No, of course not, and that is good. CPD is the way to go!
What about KCAI who do not belong to the APDT?

THEY have to commit to a Code of Practice and CPD?
Well last time I contacted them about the KCAI scheme, they were not into any particular methods or avoiding any either, but this was a few years ago now.

I can't recall when, but it was suggested that if I wanted to go that way, I could show some of the more entrenched people by example... but I did not want to do it like that, as they should be the ones setting the example.

Are you saying the Code of Practice is against the use of aversives etc? Or just that they have one?

Wys
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Meg
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27-07-2011, 03:38 PM
If I find my puppy tipping over the kitchen bin, then with a sharp "Hey, You" I can stop the puppy doing what it is doing and with most sensitive dogs discourage them from ever doing it again. Simple. Done. Dog no longer at risk from contents of bin. For life
If I found my puppy tipping over the kitchen bin I would kick myself for leaving the bin where the puppy could get at it.
I also know from past experience that shouting is a waste of time, the puppy will soon learn if you are not there it can go in the bin unhindered.
For me it is up to the owner to try to keep the puppy safe by removing things like bins and if you can't move it there are usually ways to secure a bin lid depending on the type.
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Lotsadogs
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27-07-2011, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by sarah1983 View Post
Dogs aren't stupid and I seriously doubt Denises dogs have thought the bin is shouting "Hey you!" at them in her voice when she's standing right there. And unless you set something up so that the dog is sprayed remotely when it goes near the vegetable patch then how will it not know that it's the person who's sprayed it with water?
No my dogs dont think that the bin is saying hey you. They know that I am. And they know what that means. And to be honest I am stunned that people have had to barricade their dogs away from such things. Utterly Stunned. We train around 80 dogs a week and raiding the bin is rarely something that comes up and I have only ever seen one of my thirty or so friends with dogs have to do such a thing. And that is with a senile dog! I am stunned by some of the content of this thread.
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Lotsadogs
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27-07-2011, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
If I found my puppy tipping over the kitchen bin I would kick myself for leaving the bin where the puppy could get at it.
I also know from past experience that shouting is a waste of time, the puppy will soon learn if you are not there it can go in the bin unhindered.
For me it is up to the owner to try to keep the puppy safe by removing things like bins and if you can't move it there are usually ways to secure a bin lid depending on the type.
Well I guess thats where you and I (and the majority of the people on this thread, it seems ) differ. I find it very easy to outline to my dogs what is and isn't required of them and by and large (with some noteable exceptions) they accept that happily. As I keep saying I am stunned that so many people have to barricade their bin! I clearly need to start training in other parts of the country
Denise Mcleod
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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
You can disagree all you like Wys I have to answer your post in bits as I have yet to learn to multiquote.
For multiquote, you select that on each post, and scroll down and then at the end do "Reply" and each post should come up on the reply... HTh?

So how come all the dogs that I have owned (except the rescue who has not long been with me) do longer raid the bin? Luck do you think? Coincidence perhaps? I think the proof of any method lies in its results! And the happiness of the dog.
I don't know how they all no longer raid the bin, except it is unusual and not the norm, Denise. If you say it has happened like this for you, that's great but it will not be like that for every dog owner.

Dr Ian Dunbar explains the problem as "Owner Absent Problems". John Fisher also mentioned them.

I would concede that with a few dogs, maybe sensitive breeds (you have collies mostly, right?) it may work. But it really does not work that way with them all.

The dogs realise the owner is not at home one day, and raid the bin.

Sorry to disagree, again; have we reached a stalemate?

Wys
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Meg
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27-07-2011, 03:48 PM
an owner hides behind a bush and uses a water spray to train the dog to stay away from the vegetable patch- This is a method/product now deemed unacceptable however used correctly it is a good training tool, harmless to the dog and very effective.
Not applicable in this particular instance but something I have always wondered about when I see people advocating the use of water sprays to stop dogs performing some misdemeanour.
Do these people carry a water bottle around with them on their person at all time, if not what happens if the dog performs the unwanted behavior when they don't have the water with them Do they use some other method to check the dog on that occasion and isn't this confusing for the dog?
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sarah1983
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27-07-2011, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
I respect your experience, but it doesnt match my own. .

I have around 30 good friends with multiple dogs in most cases and to the best of my knowledge only one of them has to barricade the bin off!

If the majority of people on here do then I am stunned!

Hey ho, you live and learn.
Practically everyone I know in real life has a problem with their dog and the bin/food left on counters. A lot of these people do more than a "hey you!" if they catch the dog at it too, it's a whack across the backside as well as yelling at the dog. It's a problem I see a lot of people asking about on forums and a certain body part and some reading material (it won't let me say the site name lol) too so it seems a very common issue. Labs and hounds seem to be the worst culprits for it.

The majority of the dogs I know are stuck in the house and garden pretty much 24/7 though. I wonder whether that has anything to do with the issue?
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