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smokeybear
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09-02-2011, 06:31 PM
No it is not, it because then there would be the same argument we are currently having about types of collars about types of harnesses.........

harnesses were DESIGNED for dogs to pull into, unless you get the anti pull ones of various forms.

Also, part of the test is to be able to take the collar on and off, so if you had to take the harness off, what would you put on the dog for safety during the test?

I give owners a slip lead, which means they can safely take off the collar to show me a) it is in good condition, b) it is appropriate for the dog and c) a legally compliant ID tag.

What would you do re harnesses bearing in mind that one poster here thinks the use of choke equipment (which is what a slip lead is essentially) is "disgraceful"?
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smokeybear
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09-02-2011, 06:32 PM
Well if you think the scheme is total rubbish, fortunately it is not compulsory!
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Dobermann
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09-02-2011, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
and I have been told by various people that you CAN'T take a good citizen test with one.

You may have been told lots of things, but I can tell you as a KC approved GC Examiner (Gold) that you CAN take any of the tests with a choke chain.

It is simple to verify, the KC produce a booklet for clubs, trainers, examiners and candidates that clearly states that NO examiner can refuse to test the dog because they do not like the collar you use! It is only 3 and KC registered clubs that administer the scheme were all supplied with these guidelines so you can ask to look at them if you cannot afford a copy of your own.

You are NOT allowed to take the test using a harness or headcollar UNLESS you provide a vet letter to explain why a regular collar is not in use.

HTH
Its been a while since we done the good citizen tests, can I ask, why is it that one 'aid' is permissable and others arent? (in other words why is a chain allowed and a harness isnt?)

Also, part of the test is to be able to take the collar on and off, so if you had to take the harness off, what would you put on the dog for safety during the test?
I was also told that my dog wasnt to take the test wearing a choker.....or any the dogs for that matter...They can wear a harness and still have a collar on to take the collar on/off? (a chain isnt a collar either?)

What would you do re harnesses bearing in mind that one poster here thinks the use of choke equipment (which is what a slip lead is essentially) is "disgraceful"?
You can hold a slip lead then you can hold a harness? I cant remeber if we were allowed to actually hold our dog to show a collar or a stay perhaps? I remember that the dog had to allow the instructor to check the collars fit whilst on the dog...well I did say it was a while ago!!
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smokeybear
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09-02-2011, 06:54 PM
Because we are testing to a standard, which is that dogs can walk on a collar and lead, not a harness and lead, not a head collar and lead etc and for the reasons I stated above.

this scheme should be simple to administer, what would you do if a candidate turned up with a Bottcher harness on their dog?

Your dog is not allowed to wear a T shirt or anxiety wrap either.

Where would it end?
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smokeybear
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09-02-2011, 07:00 PM
I was also told that my dog wasnt to take the test wearing a choker.....or any the dogs for that matter...They can wear a harness and still have a collar on to take the collar on/off? (a chain isnt a collar either?)

Again you were misinformed, demonstrates that there are plenty of people out there training and testing who should not be.

A check chain is a collar, it is worn round the neck.

If you are relying on the harness to restrain the dog for safety then the harness would have to be taken off for the tester to examine for safety and suitability just the same way as a collar!

This is the PURPOSE of the exercise, to see if the owner understands about safety, correct fitting, worn stitching etc.

You cannot put another harness on a dog whilst taking the other one off IME!

You do not HOLD the collar to show the examiner, it has to be taken off, it is the first exercise (well the one I incorporate with the legally compliant ID) failure to have a legally compliant ID disbars the dog from further participation.
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Dobermann
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09-02-2011, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
Because we are testing to a standard, which is that dogs can walk on a collar and lead, not a harness and lead, not a head collar and lead etc and for the reasons I stated above.

this scheme should be simple to administer, what would you do if a candidate turned up with a Bottcher harness on their dog?

Your dog is not allowed to wear a T shirt or anxiety wrap either.

Where would it end?
but a chain isnt a collar so why is that acceptable?

I have seen some GHASTLY tests where people have been allowed 6 attempts at the stay, when it CLEARLY states in the guidelines that no second attempts are permitted EXCEPT in extraordinary circumstances.

That is why some of the certificates some people hold with their dogs are, IMHO, not worth the paper they are written on!

And it undermines the achievements of those who HAVE trained their dogs correctly.
I agree there. They dont follow the tests because they arent a good enough trainer to back up why the dog didnt.....Iv seen the (same trainer/class) them ignore the fact that a woman couldnt even touch her own dog for fear of being bitten without offering any help at all. Then during a test the same people decided it was ok to give several attempts at a stay to one dog (including removing the dog to a seperate area to do it on its own and it still 'failed') but then they passed the dog. Even the owners werent that chuffed!

My dog did everything right and passed but it makes it a bit worthless if you see what I mean?
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Chris
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09-02-2011, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
No it is not, it because then there would be the same argument we are currently having about types of collars about types of harnesses.........

harnesses were DESIGNED for dogs to pull into, unless you get the anti pull ones of various forms.

Also, part of the test is to be able to take the collar on and off, so if you had to take the harness off, what would you put on the dog for safety during the test?

I give owners a slip lead, which means they can safely take off the collar to show me a) it is in good condition, b) it is appropriate for the dog and c) a legally compliant ID tag.

What would you do re harnesses bearing in mind that one poster here thinks the use of choke equipment (which is what a slip lead is essentially) is "disgraceful"?
Many teach their dogs on static harnesses rather than flat collars. It's easy to see whether or not a harness is fitted correctly and whether or not it is worn with it on the dog. Tags are also easily read if fitted to the harness although many dogs also wear a collar as well as a harness simply to allow tags to be worn at all times. Sorry, but I do not agree that harnesses were designed with pulling in mind - maybe at some point in history, but they do not compel the dog to pull.

Promoting 'good practice' which is surely what the tests should be doing, should not include allowing equipment that encourages owners to apply physical corrections to the dog.
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smokeybear
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09-02-2011, 07:11 PM
A chain IS a collar, it is not a head collar, it is not a harness, it is worn around the neck and is used in order to attach a lead to it to keep the dog safe.

How can you see if the stitching is worn on the underside and INSIDE of a harness unless you take it off, (perhaps you are gifted with x ray vision)!?

You may or may not agree that harnesses were designed with pulling in mind, look back in history, and now, dogs PULL sleds in harnesses, people in harnesses, track in harnesses as of course it is SAFER than pulling into collars (unless you have the line UNDER the dog). These are facts, not opinions.

Perhaps we should not use leads as they could encourage owners to apply physical corrections to the dog; have you never seen a dog physically corrected in a harness? I have, and in a head collar. So I am afraid that argument holds no logic!

I fail to see how seeing if a dog can walk on a loose lead (on choke, half choke, flat collar) is not "good practice"? If a dog is pulling into the collar (whatever its design) it is "not ready"!

Perhaps you could enlighten me?
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Dobermann
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09-02-2011, 07:12 PM
well in that case what happened to the 'stay'?

Tell the dog to stay, take off whatever you like, inspect it and then put it on again. If I remember correctly(?) There is a stay at every test, so the dog should fine be able to do that?
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smokeybear
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09-02-2011, 07:13 PM
The stay test is on a collar and lead in the Bronze.........
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