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Ruffles
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Location: Richmond
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16-09-2006, 07:15 AM
Springer girl obviously whatever training class your going to is not doing any good at all all thats happening is your dog is being punished all the time evenstarvation now trainers aresupposed to show how to take the dog out fora free run, its not happening change trainersI think and everything you say that this one long punishment afterpunishment after punishment of both you and the dog.
its teaching your dog nothing and literaly yourboth liveing a life of misery, dogs need to run around and owners walk relaxed while they do it. It shouldend now maybe tell your trainer you want nsweres which work not methods which dont work, thats what yoiu pay them for, your dog needs to run and recal and thats wht you are paying them to show you, its never going to happen from what you have been saying.
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Shadowboxer
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16-09-2006, 07:51 AM
Originally Posted by Ruffles View Post
Springer girl obviously whatever training class your going to is not doing any good at all all thats happening is your dog is being punished all the time evenstarvation now trainers aresupposed to show how to take the dog out fora free run, its not happening change trainersI think and everything you say that this one long punishment afterpunishment after punishment of both you and the dog.
its teaching your dog nothing and literaly yourboth liveing a life of misery, dogs need to run around and owners walk relaxed while they do it. It shouldend now maybe tell your trainer you want nsweres which work not methods which dont work, thats what yoiu pay them for, your dog needs to run and recal and thats wht you are paying them to show you, its never going to happen from what you have been saying.
I hardly think that Springergirl and her dog are "literally" living lives of "misery". Bear in mind her breed and what it was developed to do. Breed instincts can be modified but never completely extinguished.

Sam is not being "punished" in any way. He is not being "starved". Many handlers, in initial training, work with dogs whose appetite is keen .

The recall will happen. It may take time and endless patience but SG has the commitment necessary to her dog. In the meantime she is being responsible and keeping him on-lead until he is reliable.

Yes, she gets frustrated sometimes. Yes, she feels she is going one step forward and two steps back sometimes. Which of us have never felt that way?

Having slammed the methods currently used or proposed, what are your suggestions for teaching reliable recall?
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Wysiwyg
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16-09-2006, 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by Ruffles View Post
Springer girl obviously whatever training class your going to is not doing any good at all all thats happening is your dog is being punished all the time evenstarvation now trainers aresupposed to show how to take the dog out fora free run, its not happening change trainersI think and everything you say that this one long punishment afterpunishment after punishment of both you and the dog.
its teaching your dog nothing and literaly yourboth liveing a life of misery, dogs need to run around and owners walk relaxed while they do it. It shouldend now maybe tell your trainer you want nsweres which work not methods which dont work, thats what yoiu pay them for, your dog needs to run and recal and thats wht you are paying them to show you, its never going to happen from what you have been saying.
I think that Ruffles is Clob/Denis - all the usual complaints. He hates trainers as he feels they should give you a result literally the first time you see them. He has a chip on his shoulder unfortunately
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Ruffles
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16-09-2006, 12:31 PM
-Springergirl for clarity, a punishment is when something not nice is happeningand or when NOTHING nice is happening for you or the dog day in day out.
Nnothingnew is happening from one day to the next, with your dog, beingpaitient means nothing more than accepting a daily task of punishing the dog, being punished yourself and rewarding a trainer of some sort by paying them to show you how to accept punishments as normal and no results as standard.
I’d suggest you employed another trainer and tell them you want it done proper, this one has taken you as far as they are able, not far by the sound of it, maybe ask them will they accept a lump sum when you get a reliable recal, that at least will test their own confidence.

1. dog is punished - sprngergirl is punished because she did not want to choke him.
“he just stood there choking on the end of the lead.”

2. Dog is punished
“i just had to keep dragging him round back to me”

3 Both are punished
“his neck must be so sore along with my hands!”

4. Dog punished,
causing hunger pain.

5. Springergirl is emotionally punished
“i was shouting at him in the middle of the field too!”

6. Dog is punished
“i stopped the walk “

7. Springergirl is emotionally punished
i just wanted to strangle him.

8. Springergirl is punished
“we got back home (or dragged home)”

9. Springergirl is rewarded Dog is punished because he did not exercise enough.
“then i took him on the green in front of my house (just to try and end on a good note). he was as good as gold!”

10. Dog is Punished for a prolongued period.
“think i'm just gonna have to suspend all his walks until we get some control.”

11. Sprinergirl punished by REALISTIC worry
“just worried he's not gonna get the physical exercise he needs”

12. Springer girl physical and emotional punishment (worry)
“....but i have to think about my health too (dont think my knees will put up with all this dragging around anymore).”

13. Dog is perpetualy punished.
Being kept unaturaly on a lead without any natural outlets.

sorry for the rant!!

I understand springergirl, at least 13 punishments, including pain by starving, on a short walk on a lead is enough to make anyone rant, especialy as you are payinmg for al this.
it needs toend and your dog get trained so it can have the freedom you want for it, not like the one below, 3 years of paying a trainer and nothing.
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=39352
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Ruffles
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16-09-2006, 12:35 PM
Shadowboxer and Wisiwig, please read again the guidlines of posting on this thread, you are entitled to offer Springergirl your thoughts, as we all are. I beleive there is a general and also a non dog topic area for off topic replies such as yours.

REMINDER: This thread is in one of our more serious sections - so please be -extra- careful not to post any off-topic replies. We aim to archive these sections as a useful resource. Thanks.
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Tigger2
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16-09-2006, 02:47 PM
Springergirl,
I have to ask how your latest walk went with the dogmatic? Did it make any difference at all to Sams insistence on pulling you to the ends of the earth? :smt002



Also did you try the no dinner idea to tempt him into paying attention to recall whilst onlead?
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Ramble
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16-09-2006, 03:38 PM
Hi Springer girl,
I wrote a really long reply to this then dogsey crashed...arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Anyway, I know how you feel. I'll keep this as brief as possible just in case...

Saturn has always been interested in everything and anything out onlead...except me!!!! The way I cracked it (recently) was to never have anywhere to go...well as much as I could which ended up about 3 times a week. I would set off and never go the same way and within minutes I would change direction, never yanking the lead, encouraging vocally and by moving to follow, I'd then walk a little and change direction again and get him to sit intermittently. We never had a place to go, that would have been beside the point, the only place he was going was after me!!! It's worked, he now wags his tail happily and watches me to see where we're off to. It took a while, but this with his classes has just about cracked it and he's a much happier dog when out as he knows what's expected of him. Often we can confuse out dogs when they have a pulling problem. Timing is crucial.

Some dogs are not food oriented and even starving them won't change that, it could also work against you and get him too interested in the food and not on what he's supposed to be doing. YES dogs should be hungey ish when being trained but that should mean anything from 2 hrs after a meal (they shouldn't be exercised before that anyway).
I would really discourage you from witholding an entire meal from such a young dog, for the purposes of training. You could end up with a dog with a very sore stomach if you withhold a meal, train and exercise it,then feed it straight away. I know you have a springer (the name gave it away!!!) but in a large chested dog this could easily lead to the dog falling ill with bloat. Yes, your dog could do with being hungry for training, but not ravenous as it could actually be detrimental to his concentration.

I would also work on getting him walking next to you offlead in the garden and house, practise it 2 or 3 times a day and you should see a marked improvement when out. If you only get up your street the first few aimless walks you go on, so be it, your dog will be more tired from concentrating on you than going for a longer walk anyway.

Good luck with this, I do know how you feel, Ember was a horror...7 and a half stone pulling you is a bit of a nightmare!!!! He got it in the end though. good luck, feel free to PM me...

Hope dogsey doesn't crash this time....
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Wysiwyg
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16-09-2006, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by springergirl View Post
hi wysiwyg,


he's not at all interested in toys or treats (even high value ones) when he's out. he treats every walk as though its his first and last walk ever

.
Very typical then bless.

I think it's pretty difficult if as you say you can't let him off. hmm. I'd be tempted to start training some gundog style exercises, perhaps on long line and harness to start, I expect if you got him using his nose, his innate abilities, and controlled them, you'd find he'd be glued to you. It will take time however.

You may find it helpful to teach Watch Me as that will get more attention on to you

Did i pM you with details of a spring site? Peeps on there who have had similar problems and it's always good to share kind of thing !
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lizziel
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16-09-2006, 05:42 PM
Don't use a flexi lead as it encourages your dog to pull more. The lead is designed to extend as your dog pulls forward so there is always tension on the lead.

I made this mistake when my pup was little thinking it was nice for him to be able to go where he wanted within reason but still be on a lead. He used to pull like mad so I ditched the lead and went to an ordinary one and had to start again with his loose lead training.

Another mistake I made was to use the word heel as a command before he really knew what I wanted him to do - I was saying heel when he pulled thinking I was giving him a command but what I was actually doing was teaching him that the word heel meant pull.

Once I had worked this out I changed the word I use to close and then only said it when he wasn't pulling so he would associate the word with walking nicely. Probably obvious to some but a fundamental error for me. Once he had learnt that the word close was associated with walking nicely I could then start to use it to ask for the behaviour I wanted.

Good luck - we all have bad days but you will get there in the end.
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Wysiwyg
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16-09-2006, 08:12 PM
This may be of some help:

http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti.../attention.htm


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