Hi Dani
I can't speak for anyone else on here but I totally admire what you've done with Bruno.
I also TOTALLY agree with what you've said about owners letting their loose dogs approach him and owners with no recall. TOTALLY!
BUT...(it's a big but I'm afraid sorry) I DO think that dog aggressive dogs should be muzzled in public, not in the garden, in public.
Why do I think this?
You've admitted that once Bruno got off lead and got to another dog, it's fantastic that you had the control and speed to stop anything happening, it's also fantastic that since you've done everything you can to prevent it happening again...but you can never be totally sure. Nor can someone who has a dog with excellent recall be totally sure that the dog will return EVERY time without fail. When dealing with dogs NOTHING is certain. Does that mean that no-one should allow their dog off lead? What a shame that would be. Things are heading that way...
my dogs have pretty perfect recall, I would never say perfect, who knows???? If my dog approached yours and for whatever reason didn't come back, and your dog got away from you ( for whatever reason) who's fault is it if your dog attacks and kills mine? If your dog was muzzled the question would never have to be answered. If it isn't, it may have to be one day. If there is ANY chance there, then I'm sorry I feel you should muzzle your dog. YOU know he is dog aggressive, it's the responsible thing to do. I'm not saying you're not already responsible because you clearly are and I really do admire what you've done and the work you've obviously put in. I think you are a great dog owner and wish that more people were like you. Believe me. I just think that if there is ANY chance your dog could attack another, any chance at all, it's up to you to ensure any damage done would be minimal, you can only do that with a muzzle. Of course a muzzle is also fallible, but at least you will have done EVERYTHING in your power to try to stop it.
I don't want to upset, I'm not syaing you're not already responsible, I just wonder why you and sponge are so adamant about not taking the final safety precaution? I would admire you if I saw you in the park with your dog onlead and muzzled and I would immediately keep away...dogs aren't always on lead because of aggression...

How to answer this - because i do see your point, i really do, however i would use your own words to answer

This is exactly it - how can you be sure that if your dog ran up to another loose or ON lead dog that they would just quite simply NOT like each other and immediately get into a fight and hurt each other ?

Whose fault would this be ?? nobodys ?

So would the answer be to never let your dog off lead - no of course not - however thats what I do - I NEVER let my dog off lead where their is ANY chance that he could get to another dog - I only ever do it in an enclosed area. So no I am adamant that I will not muzzle bruno in public when onlead just in case he breaks free of me ( which has happened once in 3 years and was my own fault for having a stupid lead on him.and I admit that however he did not hurt the dog.- admittedly he could have ( Incidentally I have previously muzzled him to try him off lead recall - he got the muzzle off within a few minutes-easily I might add so for me its a pointless thing to do)

However in the same vein - what if he was on or off lead AND muzzled and got attacked by another dog - and couldnt defend himself ?? How would this help him - he would be even worse with other dogs if he even managed to survive an attack .

Not wishing to get into a huge debate about it - but I feel that if my dog was say a yorkshire terrier who was aggressive and had to be kept on lead - I wonder whether people would genuinely deep down think I should muzzle it ?

I know as a staffie owner I am particularly sensitive to comments made because of my breed, but i genuinely feel that Bruno is at a point where he is controllable on lead, he is in NO WAY aggressive with humans, he will cause a fuss when walking past another dog - but 2 years ago we couldnt even do that. I dont want to have to muzzle my dog on the off chance that he could get out of his harness, collar and lead.

But yes I take your point - but equally EVERYONE as a dog owner has a responsibility for their dogs behaviour, its the LAW that you should have your dog under control at all times, so many people flout that by walking their dogs offlead next to roads, not paying attention to them when near other dogs/kids/etc and letting them run up to other dogs willy nilly - so I am being AS responsible as I need to be to prevent a situation where my dog could be blamed for anything. There is always going to be a "its possible" situation but at the end of the day does that mean because there is a possibility that your dog does not recall, that it could attack another dog suddenly, that it runs into the road - does that mean you would always keep your dog on a lead ? or never walk it ?

Sensitive to it yes - but I am not ignorant of what could be a possibility of happening, however neither am I of the opinion that Bruno requires to be muzzled in public. Part of that could well be breed specific, because staffies get such a raw deal in the media and are constantly attacked as "devil dogs", their reputation is already horrendous and unjust and I feel that if he was unnecessarily muzzled then the general public would give an even harsher critique of them then they already have.

at the end of the day everyone is entitled to their opinion but I beleive that my dog is kept under control, you cant live your lives on "what ifs" and even if you did - there is always going to be something that could be a possibility.


edited to add - should their be a situation in which Bruno was onlead and another dog came up to him and started something - and for whatever reason i could not hang on to him ( its never been the case- I have always managed to hang on to him whilst tryign to remove the other dog) That being the hypothetical situation - if I had to let bruno go and the dogs were going at it - then sory but in my opinion the other dog owner is just as much responsible IF not more so because their dog woudl have NOT been under control in the first place.

.

so all dogs should wear a muzzle?? because all dogs could potentially if threatened or for whatever reason could attack another. and i think people are very naive to think other wise. especially the off lead dog owners who allow their dog to approach anything.

people arent good owners because they have a dog friendly dog, good owners are people like Dani who take the steps to ensure their dog isnt a hinderance to other owners ( by said off lead roaming, crap recall, etc)

Yes, was going to say after reading Ailsa's post - NO dog is 100% reliable, and ALL dogs have the potential to attack/bite - so that means ALL dogs should be on lead and wear a muzzle (In theory)

My own dog, Teagan, attacked my Yorkshire Terrier - In my own home!
I don't muzzle Teagan, I let her off lead. She has never attacked any other dogs, or even retaliated when she has been attacked.

As I said before, I am new here and I don't want to upset anyone. I apologize if I have. I wasn't 'having a go' at anyone - every dog-owner encounters problems of one type or another, none of us are perfect and neither are our dogs. All we can do is the best we can.

I can see both sides of this problem - my Mother in Law's lurcher was dog-aggressive, and was in a rescue kennels for 2 years because of this problem - and my Westie has been savagely attacked a few years ago, when he poked his nose through my nieghbour's chain-link garden fence to say hello to their Weinmariner - he nearly had his nose ripped off. The screaming and the blood was absolutely horrific, it is something I will never, ever forget, and he still has the scar. OK, it's not the same as seeing a human attacked, but omg, I still shake when I think about it, it is NOT nice to see your dog being attacked!!

I'm not a dog-behaviourist, but I do know you CAN train a dog-aggressive dog to behave well with other dogs (or cats for that matter) because my Mother In Law has done it! She worked with behaviourists from the rescue kennel and in 2 years, her gorgeous lurcher has changed from charging across a field to attack a dog, to being able to romp and play happily with other dogs both on and off lead, in his own garden or out on walks. It took time, patience and working with specialists, but when you see him now having such great fun with his doggy-pals, you know it was worth every moment of the effort.

I don't know if you could do the same with your dog? It's worth looking into, surely?

As for using a muzzle - I still don't really understand why you are so anti muzzles? Have you had a bad experience with one? So long as they are used correctly, they can't harm the dog and they do bring you peace of mind. I would rather see a dog in a muzzle scampering over the fields, sniffing at smells and enjoying life, than one straining on a lead snarling while the poor owner hangs on for dear life. One other point - when my MIL was training her lurcher, people seemed to be far more 'respectful' of a dog in a muzzle, and tended to act more sensibly, putting their dog on a closer lead or telling their kids not to get too close until the owner says it's OK, etc. I think that helped her, and the dog, quite a lot, in the early stages.

Please, don't feel I'm 'having a go', I'm not. I do understand both sides of this argument - I just thought I could maybe offer a different point of view. I appreciate the problems you have and I think it's great you are perservering with a dog many other people couldn't have coped with. That takes a lot of guts and speaks volumes about how much you care about your dog.

It upsets me to read posts on Staffs and aggression, I would certainly trust my Staff and anyone elses Staff before I would trust a Jack Russell, but that is my opinion and like many of you, I am entitled to it. Now what really gets my back up is the ppl who think there breed is above the rest. No breed is totally 110% reliable. I can say NOW i have one out of three Staffords that has suddenly turned Dog Aggressive, due to an injury to his back leg believe it or not. I will not however even think about taking his rights of freedom away and stick a muzzle on him. I WILL, however, DEAL with any situation. Being a RESPONSIBLE Stafford owner I can control Kai and deal with him when another dog is in the area. I will also still show Kai, as he knows when to behave. Just because there are dog agressive Staffs, does not mean they will attack every dog in sight. Any responsible owner would do the right thing Every dog can be unpredictable.

Reading through this has one point that keeps coming up....

'Responsible owners'...

Sadly there are too few out there IMHO and its due to these that maybe for the sake of the dogs safety that muzzles should be used.

Also some people's opinions of muzzles are misguided I think, as they automatically think the dog is going to be 'people aggressive'. When in reality, the dog is far from aggressive to people or other dogs but may eat something off the floor which could otherwise harm them further.

I am a responsible owner, I look after my dogs and others around me. I don't just take MY dogs into concideration. I pick up after my dogs and I don't allow my dogs to eat off the floor.

Would you say that all Humans should be handcuffed JUST IN CASE!!!? We all try to make the right decisions in life. Dogs fight, Humans fight, when it happens.... DEAL WITH IT!!!

I won't be adding more to this because it has been discussed so many times before and goes round in circles. And i have a litter of 9 Aggressive puppies to rear into monsters.... Ppl need to take their heads out of their **** imo

For what its worth, I don't think breed has much to do with it - any breed can become dog-aggressive. It is how the dog is brought up, socialized, and what life-experiences that dog has that makes the difference - and sadly we can't always control those things.

Muzzles are clearly a sensitive issue although personally, I can't see what the fuss is all about. Its not like handcuffing a person at all - it's simply a light-weight, comfortable device, worn for a short, usually-supervised period (an hour or two at most?) to prevent a dog inflicting harm with its jaws and teeth, either to other dogs, people, things or even to itself. A dog can drink, sniff, pant, bark, snarl (if it wants!) . . I've even seen a greyhound washing itself while it was wearing a muzzle!!

I guess the point I'm really trying to make in this thread is this - there is more to be done for dogs with aggression problems (any type of aggression) than keeping them on the lead and 'hoping' nothing will come your way. I know it can be done, I've seen it. All it takes is a bit of time and effort and a specialist to guide you through the process.

HI

In reply to you specifically regarding the behaviorist side of things - bruno has had 2 and neither has cured his aggression with dogs. Both have tried different things, I, myself have managed to get Bruno walking with 2 other dogs - one a female staff and the other my friends 8 yr old mongrel ( aslo female). With both of these dogs Bruno is fine - but it took gentle introductions to get him to this stage - he can be let off lead with Josie ( the mongrel) and they have a great time - however that is because of the way they have been introduced. the behaviorists were a huge waste of money as both I felt were trying to take away bruno's staffiness and make him into a super obedient collie - which no offence I dont want him to be.

I also took Bruno to a dog training class where the trainer took Bruno and made him stay while other dogs sniffed him etc - He was ok and didnt react but was terrified and was actually cowering - i know with Bruno it is probably fear aggression as I assume he had no socialisation as a pup. However once your dog is already aggressive how do you then get past this other than trying to find someone with a stooge dog - easier said than done.

bruno does not like confrontation ie: He will not tolerate a dog coming towards him and coming into his "personal doggy space" - This is my gripe - other owners should simply not allow this to happen without consulting me first - If they did then I would not be in the position of needing him to wear a muzzle would I ?

I beleive it is not only the responsibility of dog aggressive owners to ensure that their dog is under control but of every single dog owner whether that be a yorkie or a great dane owner. I dont think its fair to say that just because my dog can be dog aggressive that he should be restricted by lead/harness AND muzzle. when urs is running free to do whatever it likes be that jumping on other dogs, getting in the way of people walking, bothering football players whatever -

As i also mentioned in my previous post, bruno can get out of a muzzle ( both types I tried) he hates it and so therefore I still couldnt trust him off/on lead wearing a muzzle - as something "could" happen still, and then because he was wearing a muzzle it would automatically be my dogs fault regardless of which dog started it. I make that point as many times Bruno will not start something - dependent on the other dogs body language. Without a doubt Bruno has fear aggression - but how do I change that - its made worse by other dogs charging up to him willy nilly without control when he is on lead- equally I cant let him off lead to see what he is like off lead in case something happens - so why should he suffer even more by being muzzled, when he already has to stay on lead?

I use the word suffer as I dont like muzzles - I know Bruno hates having anything on his face - even a halti/canny collar he woudl not tolerate so why make him have to wear a basket muzzle for 2 hrs a day whilst he is walked ? when he is not a threat to anybody/thing as is under control.

At the end of the day I am not gong to turn around and say that I agree with muzzling when I dont -

I believe evry single dog owner has a responsibility to control their dog - I do that far more than most.

I also know that my immediate reaction if i see a muzzled dog would always firstly be - He must be human aggressive ?? I dont want people to think that of Bruno so I wont make him wear one and will continue to avoid as many dogs as i can - thats my choice .

He will continue to be introduced to female dogs where possible and I hope that he will gain more doggy pals this way.