With the whole punishment thing, it can get confusing for peeps because some will use it strictly in its scientific meaning (as in OC, -p,+p, -r and +r ) and others are just referring to the more everyday use of the term - as in, not hitting, yelling, etc.

So it can get confusing if people are discussing referring to positive training or trainers, but without clarification of what they refer to (not meaning you, Ben )..

Wys
x

Totally agree.
To me, positive training is about making it better / easier / more rewarding for the dog to do what you want. So rather than try to stop an unwanted behaviour, I find it simpler to teach an alternative.
So - rather than lunge at traffic wardens, Daisy gazes lovingly at me in response to the words `Watch me` and I protect us from the scary traffic wardens (or whatever).
I teach young people the same way - rather than telling them to be quiet and behave, I give them a task that requires concentration and co-operation. Then they learn focus and also feel a sense of achievement.

I think most dogs are capable of having stubborn moments, there are bound to be times when they really don’t want to do something (e.g. go out on a cold wet night for a pee). But I agree that generally dogs are biddable by nature and just want to please.

I teach young people the same way - rather than telling them to be quiet and behave, I give them a task that requires concentration and co-operation

If only all teachers and people working with 'youngsters' thought like that...I think thats a great way to approach the learning of people and animals. Age regardless really, but its a shame so many people still have such negative experiences when starting nursery, primary, secondary.......

yes, though it demonstrates that positive training can go wrong too.

ANY method of training can go wrong, a lot depends on the skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience of the trainer!

The point I was making about hands on for playing dead is that whilst useful, it aint a REQUIRED skill, so no need to INSIST by using hands on, it can be done perfectly well hands off, IF you know what you are doing.

Another common misconception about those who use hands off training is that we do not touch our dogs or use canine massage, tellington touch etc, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Hands should be WELCOME to a dog, not a means of punishment.

Not wanting to do something does not = stubborness!

If I do not want to walk naked in the street, it has nothing to do with being obstinate!

I suppose I must have been a bit of an 'odd-bod' trainer looking at some of the experiences some have had with training classes.

For me, the emphasis was on having fun. Dogs having fun, owner having fun and me having fun. You can't have fun if you are, or are recommending chastising a dog or pushing/pulling them into various positions. A lot can be learned when having fun for all concerned.

Making the training as relaxed and enjoyable as possible achieves incredibly fast results because the learning takes place often without anybody noticing until they suddenly find that their dog is responsive to their wishes

As others have said, if I were taking my dog to a training class, I'd want to go and observe the class first. I'd want to talk both to the trainer(s) taking the class and to the people attending. I'd be looking for people (all of the people) enjoying the training experience and, of course, all of the dogs enjoying the training experience too

I really don't believe dogs have stubborn moments - just don't think the term is applicable to dogs .. for sure they may choose not to do something but that doesn't mean an animal is being "stubborn"... refusing to go out in wet or cold has precious all to do with stubborness and everything to do with not liking being wet and/or cold ..

IME a dogs refusal to do something for it's handler can be for a myriad of reasons - insufficient teaching/ practice,
ineffective reward/ motivator, tiredness or illness, training fatigue, upping criteria too fast, handler/ dog relationship out of whack et al .. stubborness Hmmm not imo.

Case in point in class this week - a dog who normally works really well was distracted, not responding to cues as was his normal response .. owner did say he thought the dog was being stubborn - I suggested his dog might need to toilet so he took dog out, dog had a pee and a poo, came back in to class and was back on form .. nothing stubborn about that just full bladder - bless.

Pet hate of mine is dogs described as stubborn and kids described as lazy. Both IMO mean not motivated and that is usually the fault of the teacher/trainer/session leader.

I try and always use positives but sometimes it is easier in life situations to physically remove a dog from danger or even just to get something done in a hurry.

I rarely move any dog around by its collar but have often slipped leads on visiting dogs to get them in from the garden etc. I mix and match with treats usually.

I have taught obedience etc hands and leads off for nearly 20 years now (Thank you John Fisher) and it is a lot easier IMO than dragging a dog around.

I was gobsmacked at the last HTM competions I went to to see so many starter dogs being dragged around and then grabbed when they left the ring. It has happened in the last 4/5 years as the competition has become more important I think. Those handlers would say they train positively so it appears to mean different things to different people.

rune

Exactly, it is amazing to me the amount of handbagging that goes on (moving dogs around by collars) especially around jumps in WT even in ticket.

When anyone does this under me they lose points.........