| View Poll Results: Which CM methods do you use on your dog? | |||
| Do you make sure your dog has enough exercise? |
   
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26 | 68.42% |
| Do you use "calm Energy" when handling your dogs? |
  
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7 | 18.42% |
| Have you ever used Foot tapping for attention? |
  
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1 | 2.63% |
| Have you ever used Foot tapping for correction? |
  
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0 | 0% |
| Have you ever used "tsstg" for attention |
  
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1 | 2.63% |
| Have you ever used "tsstg" for correction |
  
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1 | 2.63% |
| Have you ever used the "hand bite" for attention |
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0 | 0% |
| Have you ever used the "hand bite" for correction |
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0 | 0% |
| Do you use prong collars |
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0 | 0% |
| Do you use the illusion collar, or other NONslip slipcollar |
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0 | 0% |
| Have you ever used flooding to overcome your dogs fear |
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0 | 0% |
| Have you ever pinned your dog to the floor |
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1 | 2.63% |
| Have you ever pinned your dog to the fllor for any reason other than aggression |
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1 | 2.63% |
| Do you alpha roll your dog? |
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0 | 0% |
| Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details. | |||
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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04-10-2009, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli 
No I didn't say that what I said is using blading/cycling as the only form of exercise for your dog is inadequate.
Becky
It is becoming ever clearer Becky, that actually you really know very little about CM. You clearly have not watched many programmes if you think that this is the only form of exercise that he uses. If you took the trouble to read even his first book, you will see how he thoroughly describes his average day's regieme when he is at home and not away filming. He gets up very early to take his pack up into the hills above LA for hours of running up there before it gets too hot. They then return to his yard, where they can cool off and chill in several large paddling pools of water.
Sounds good to me.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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04-10-2009, 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by Annajayne
Dogs need a warm up and warm down when walking. This is not something I read or made up. My last dog suffered badly with his joints and was seeing a specialist for some time. That specialist vet said just like people, dogs need to warm up before running and then warm down. Lead walk, let them off, lead walk back to the car or home. If Gnasher is setting off on her bike with that poor dog she is heading for trouble.
I also feel that if Gnasher has to tsst and oi so much her training isn't working. No CM training, ever, in my house and I have a very fiesty boy, but I only need to use his name. Makes me wonder if some people just have a dog so they can feel powerful.
Secondly, regarding the oi ing and tssting, you clearly are not familiar with my breed or type of dog. The northern breeds in general are not noted for their instant obedience. The very fact that Tai is so obedient, and I can let him off the lead at all is a testimony to CM quite frankly. I have already explained how he hates to sit. He is not very good at the sit command. I have to quite frequently, probably around half the time, do at least one set of oi and tsst before the git sits. So what? He is pretty well perfect with all other commands, I can trust him with my life with other dogs, including entire males. He is well balanced, well socialised, gentle, obedient and in my eyes just perfect.
The theory behind not using the dog's name is this. Cesar says if you are reprimanding your dog, it is not a good idea to use the dog's name. The dog should always associate his name with praise and reward. Hence, I do not say (as I would have done, pre Cesar):
"Tai, sit!"
"Tai, sit DOWN !"
"Tai, SIT DOWN " "
"Tai, you are a bad dog, SIT DOWN !!"
Not that it would take this long to get him to sit, I am just giving an example of how CM thinks you should not associate your dog's name in his mind with being naughty. Because if you do, when you call your dog he will think "oh heck, I'm in trouble, I am not bloody well going to respond". It is a theory that I think makes sense. For me, it is no longer a theory, it has become a fact, simply because it works with my dog, who is a stubborn git ... or was !
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
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04-10-2009, 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Tai pretty well ALWAYS has a warm up before we set off on bikes Annajayne. Please don't tell me how to treat my dog. I have owned dogs for 41 years, and although I would never consider myself an expert, I do know how to treat dogs. Usually, I have taken him round the field for a quick walk beforehand so that he has an empty bladder and bowel. We ride our bikes along the canals, and I won't always be able to notice when he stops to do a poo, so I like if possible for him to have done this before we go as there is nothing much worse than riding through dog crap on your mountain bike. The poo sets solid in the treads of the tyre, and you have to blast it out with a hose, which invariably splashes in your face.
Secondly, regarding the oi ing and tssting, you clearly are not familiar with my breed or type of dog. The northern breeds in general are not noted for their instant obedience. The very fact that Tai is so obedient, and I can let him off the lead at all is a testimony to CM quite frankly. I have already explained how he hates to sit. He is not very good at the sit command. I have to quite frequently, probably around half the time, do at least one set of oi and tsst before the git sits. So what? He is pretty well perfect with all other commands, I can trust him with my life with other dogs, including entire males. He is well balanced, well socialised, gentle, obedient and in my eyes just perfect.
The theory behind not using the dog's name is this. Cesar says if you are reprimanding your dog, it is not a good idea to use the dog's name. The dog should always associate his name with praise and reward. Hence, I do not say (as I would have done, pre Cesar):
"Tai, sit!"
"Tai, sit DOWN !"
"Tai, SIT DOWN " "
"Tai, you are a bad dog, SIT DOWN !!"
Not that it would take this long to get him to sit, I am just giving an example of how CM thinks you should not associate your dog's name in his mind with being naughty. Because if you do, when you call your dog he will think "oh heck, I'm in trouble, I am not bloody well going to respond". It is a theory that I think makes sense. For me, it is no longer a theory, it has become a fact, simply because it works with my dog, who is a stubborn git ... or was !
why would you of said that gnasher?
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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04-10-2009, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by scarter
Lady, you need to calm yourself down a few notches. If the cap fits then wear it. If not then don't assume it's about you!
It's not an exercise regime. It's a suggested structure for a walk. Some people would just clip a lead on their dog and walk for an hour. Others will take it to the park, unclip the lead at the park gate, let the dog run wild and clip it back on an hour later to go home. Neither of these approaches is ideal if you're trying to bond with your dog AND ensure that the walk is satisfying and calming.
We found our dogs were much calmer and more satisfied when we tried doing things this way.
But CM doesn't recommend that the all you do is walk the dog. That's just part of the exercise regime and the walk is about far more than just exercise. If you have very high energy dogs you need to find sports or activities that'll let them really work out and burn off energy - including roller blading, biking etc. But also sports that satisfy your dog's breed instincts.
His some photos of some of those poor dogs you pity being forced to endure CM style exercise (mine):
And "just being dogs"....
(These were taken yesterday during our CM style walk - do they look like 'poor dogs' to you?
I guess it just comes down to the individual. You take the advice CM gives on exercise and come up with something thoroughly unpleasant and harmful. Whereas some of us do as he advises and give our dogs a wonderful life. And that I think is the bottom line - if you can use something to make your dog and yourself fullfilled and happy then use it. If you can't see a way to make it work for you then move on and find something else. If you let yourself get bitter, twisted and angry over what other people choose to do it'll eventually affect your health and that bitterness is bound to surface somewhere in your home life and poison your dog's and family too. Let it go. You won't stop people doing something that they're getting great results with!
I have very fond memories of a lovely beagle bitch called Buttons, who was just so naughty. I was only young at the time, but in the end my friends who owned her had to give her away because they just could not handle her. They are delightful dogs, there are one or two around here, but sadly they are overweight because the owners say they are so disobedient they just cannot let them off the lead. I have tried in the most tactful way to help them, but they just don't want to know. They would much rather have badly behaved overweight dogs who will doubtless die young rather than actually get off their backsides and do something constructive for their dogs
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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04-10-2009, 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by lozzibear
but you said it like that is all CM suggests, which it isnt
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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04-10-2009, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Great piccies Scarter, really fab
- but I can't see how that is actually CM style exercise. I mean, I do those things (not all of them but various things) with my dog and I am not a CM supporter.I just believe in exercise.
Your dogs look lovely by the way
Wys
x
Try and forget the bits you don't like ... you say you don't like the pinning, the "stringing-up" as you call it (although we disagree on this) ... and concentrate on the good bits. There are plenty of other trainers I like, I am not just a blind devotee of Cesar. There are elements of Cesar I do not like, as you well know, I hate the use of gadgets of any kind being the biggest hate of mine.
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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04-10-2009, 12:03 PM
But
Out walking today I only saw 3 dogs
One - the same little puppy (3-4 months old) I saw the other day, bouncing along happily beeing a puppy. Person walking it totaly ignored it at all times except when she thought it was doing something wrong - bouncing, pulling, tugging lead - then the dog got a 'pssstttt' and a yank on the lead - I mean its only this week it has been alowed out in the big wide world and it is getting no guidence of what it is doing right just punished randomly
Two
Kids walking two little dogs, dogs charge up to Mia (who thankfully focuses on me) Kids just yell angrily at the dogs and when the dogs come back tell them off
Three
Lady walking her large breed through the park on a short lead
Every time the dog pulls she stops and goes 'pssst' - so funny watching her every step she was going 'pssst' it was like she was deflating 'psst, psst, psst' and the dog was paying no attention to the noise as it was a meaningless background noise
But good examples of why not to try this at home
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Location: Poodle Heaven!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,297
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04-10-2009, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by scarter
It's not an exercise regime. It's a suggested structure for a walk. Some people would just clip a lead on their dog and walk for an hour. Others will take it to the park, unclip the lead at the park gate, let the dog run wild and clip it back on an hour later to go home. Neither of these approaches is ideal if you're trying to bond with your dog AND ensure that the walk is satisfying and calming.
Why should a walk be structured? There is a big difference to having your dog under control and being in total control of everything your dog does. How on earth can exercise be 'calming' the whole point of exercise is to bring up your metabolic rate and improve circulation, for dogs it is very exciting NOT calming. The calming down will happen after the walk!
But CM doesn't recommend that the all you do is walk the dog. That's just part of the exercise regime and the walk is about far more than just exercise. If you have very high energy dogs you need to find sports or activities that'll let them really work out and burn off energy - including roller blading, biking etc. But also sports that satisfy your dog's breed instincts.
His some photos of some of those poor dogs you pity being forced to endure CM style exercise (mine):The photographs are great, but to me have nothing to do with anything CM promotes or encourages and all to do with common sense. CM advocates total control over evrything your dog does to ensure you remain 'pack leader'.
I guess it just comes down to the individual. You take the advice CM gives on exercise and come up with something thoroughly unpleasant and harmful. Whereas some of us do as he advises and give our dogs a wonderful life. And that I think is the bottom line - if you can use something to make your dog and yourself fullfilled and happy then use it. If you can't see a way to make it work for you then move on and find something else. If you let yourself get bitter, twisted and angry over what other people choose to do it'll eventually affect your health and that bitterness is bound to surface somewhere in your home life and poison your dog's and family too. Let it go. You won't stop people doing something that they're getting great results with!
CM isn't all about exercise either, many of us see the horrific abuse that he deals out to dogs with all the jabbing and poking, He almost killed a dog by asphyixating it yet you still believe he is a good man. Is a child molester a good man because he gives money to a charity?
Originally Posted by lozzibear
but you said it like that is all CM suggests, which it isnt
Originally Posted by scarter
I think this is EXACTLY the point the opening poster is trying to make. There is an awful lot of common ground - so much so that it's astonishing how many heated 'discussions' there are on the topic.
There is not an 'awful lot' of common ground, the only thing we agree on is that dogs should have adequate mental and physical stimulation. That is where the similarities end. After that it is all about dominantion and intimidation and bullying.
The pictures at the beach were taken during our walk yesterday. We follow a structure along the lines outlined by CM for a walk (probably something a lot of people do because of common sense or experience). Another poster commented that she pitied the poor dogs that were forced to walk like that. Well, look at the pictures. As you can see they were having a ball.
Then I would say that you werent folloing his 'structured walk'.
CM recommends that you find activities to satisfy any breed instincts (in our case we use lurecoursing). That lets our dogs satisfy those urges and they don't feel miserable that we don't let them run wild like this every day during walks (which would be dangerous and irresponsible). And just look how they enjoy it - can his advice really be so bad?
As said before no, good for him, doesn't turn the man into a saint though, he still abuses dogs evben if you can't see it.
So why on earth do people try and turn something wonderful into something sinister and 'cruel' just because they don't like the man?
because the other things he does is appalling and abusive and cruel and he should be charged with animal abuse as far as I'm concerned. He is disgusting with what he does to dogs, I've seen him through dachshunds onto the floor, not one programme of his I have watched demonstrated any ability to interpret dog language and there are many instances surfacing where the dogs have relapsed into a worse state than before. However, I will never forgive him for strangling a dog so much that it collapses onto the floor, tongue blue from lack of oxygen gasping for it's life.
Originally Posted by Gnasher
I again totally disagree Becky. When we took Tai on, he was totally unfit, had no musclature at all according to the vet. She told us to EXERCISE him, not to build him up gradually, but to exercise him.
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Quite, Lozzibear ! The temptation, Becky, is huge, bearing in mind the abuse us CM supporters suffer, but I shall resist the temptation and keep the moral high ground.
Becky
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Location: leeds england
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 28
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04-10-2009, 12:47 PM
and gnasher i agree with what you said, dogs love excercise its a natural environment to them , its like breathing ,and they also love the companionship they share with humans, so put this together and you have a happy dog!!!