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scarter
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Location: Glasgow, UK
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17-09-2008, 01:00 PM
Hali - you're absolutely right. Dogs can and do get energy from carbs. It's a complete myth that they can't. They don't NEED carbs. Nor do they NEED meat - there are plenty of healthy, aged vegetarian dogs! But most (probably all) types of working/athlete dog have been shown in studies to perform much better with carbs in their diet. Depending upon sport/work (i.e anaerobic/aerobic) anything from 10 - 70%.

Originally Posted by Evie View Post

You want the best for your dog? In my opinion that is a raw prey model diet. If you want help and info on how to feed that I'm willing to offer you my help; otherwise I'm not sure what the point is.

Hi Evie.

Yes, I want the best for my dog. No, I don't think the raw prey model is something I want to try. It really seems wrong for my dog. There are lots of equally healthy and very different ways of feeding a dog, so don't take my regection of your preferred feeding method to be a critisism.

The point is as it says on the tin (or thread title ) "Raw Beginner - Help Needed with Optimising Diet for Performance".

I think some of you are confusing two issues:

1. Is raw food good for dogs? (My research has led me to suspect is will be good for mine)

2. Do dogs need carbohydrates? (I'm pretty certain mine does to be at her best and to live the life that she's come to enjoy).

I'm interested in feeding my dog raw food. But I'm not buying into the methodologies that most raw feeders seem so keen on. I'm more interested in the raw meat/kibble mixes that sled dog and greyhound trainers typically feed their dogs. Not because I plan to feed my dog like a working greyhound or sled dog, but because I feel that these are the people that really test their dogs diets. They can't afford to let emotion or appealing feading methodologies dictate how they feed their dogs. If they get it wrong their dogs don't perform.

You are absolutely right! Burns is a very highly regarded food developed by a vet that was concerned about the poor quality of dog foods. Prior to creating the kibble he advised his clients to feed their dogs a mixture of 1/3 brown rice, 1/3 veg and 1/3 cooked meat with as much variety as possible. Apparantly those that did it were rewarded with astonishinly improvement in the health and fitness of their dogs. Very similar to the kind of improvements that BARFers and Prey Modelers say they see. My dog really does thrive on Burns - both in terms of health and fitness. There's a man that trains whippets and greyhounds at our local racing club. He used to feed a raw diet, but after switching to Burns he says he's never looked back. His dogs perform much better on it. He uses the Active formula, although the Burns people suggested to me that for sprinters their maintenance diet might be better based upon the figures from the book I quoted earlier. They also say it's completely fine to mix Active and Maintenance kibble to obtain the exact ration of carbs/proteins/fats to suit your dog and his sport. So if any of you have performance dogs and want to optimise both health AND performance it might be worth giving Burns a trial run. You could mix it with some raw food provided you're careful to workout the protein/fat/carb requirements of your particular dog.

I think I mentioned in an earlier post that we switched Beanie back on to Burns last night after she hit an all-time low in the park yesterday. The day before yesterday we decided to take the plunge and try her on raw only - no kibble for her evening meal. We also upped the fat content in her diet. Boy did her performance suffer for it! Paul had to bring her home early from the park because she was slow, panting, knackered and thoroughly dejected because she was getting trounced by dogs she normally runs rings around. This is an absolute first - it just wasn't our little dog.

We're just back from a three hour walk in the park. After just two kibble only meals she's improved significantly. She's still not back to her pre-raw energy levels but much better than she's been. The big test will be race day on Sunday. I would hope that three or four days back on kibble should have her back to her old self.

The plan is to keep her on burns until she's fully mature. The raw diet we've been feeding her for the last three weeks is having a dreadful effect on her performance. She's still fit and fast, but a shaddow of what she was on Burns. Now sure, she might adapt to raw if we just stuck it out, but she's still not fully mature and I simply don't want to risk keeping her on a food that her system clearly isn't coping well with. When she's fully mature we'll have a stable benchmark of her performance on kibble which will allow us to objectively assess the results of any dietry changes we make. Hopefully by then I'll have a good plan for introducing raw food WITHOUT a drop in performance (And if I'm lucky with an improvement in performance )
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Evie
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17-09-2008, 01:08 PM
Hi,

If Burns works for you and your dog, well stick with it.
Just please be sure if you do decide to introduce rraw to her again in the future to take it slowly as I said before so her system can adjust easier to it.

Good luck for Sunday.
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scarter
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17-09-2008, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Evie View Post

Good luck for Sunday.
Thank you

I am still very interested in hearing from anyone with any experience of feeding raw with carbs to performance dogs. I want as much info as I can get before we make our second attempt!

One shocking fact that I discovered during my searches is that a sled dog requires about 800 cals a day whilst at rest in the summer months. In mid winter during races it needs as much as 10,000 - yep - TEN THOUSAND CALORIES A DAY!! A typical diet consists of 32% protein, 15% carbohydrates and 53% fat. So if there are any sled dog trainers reading what are the ingredients of this typical fat rich diet? What is the typical source of carbs?
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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17-09-2008, 05:28 PM
I would say stop switching the food around so much
If you are happy with Burns then stick with it

I am a lot insulted by the suggestion that I am feeding based on emotion or what is appealing feeding

I fed kibble cos it was easy and pet food companies had made me and many other people think it was the best in the whole world for my dog

It wasnt - my dog was so skinny people could have called the RSPCA

I researched like hell (and I have a background in Science and research so I know what the figures mean)
I got testimonies from lots of people
I spent hours calculating figures

scared as h£ll I finally jumped


at one year and one day my dog took part in a club agaility comp
We ran in 4 classes and with the waiting around and the practise rings that took the full morning

Ben got 3 clear rounds and was placed 5th in one class and was only mentally tiring at the end and took one pole down cos my commands were not clear - after that he could and did still run around like a dafty

- that takes mental and physical stamina and also high sprint speed (his times were measured against the big dogs too so he was 5th including the collies)
Lots of other people in our agility club feed raw - and the dogs are performing to a high level

I am sorry that you feel a diet you tried incorectly and for a verry short time is wrong for your dog
but please do not insult me and suggest I am feeding my little dog 'like a wolf' because it is a fancy thing to do - I am doing it because based on number crunching and evidence of other dog owners for many years (rem the raw vet guy (forgot his name) started all this in the 80's so it is not new

You feed what works for your dog
great - I am truly happy for you
dont switch around - if you are going to try something new try it fully and properly for at least a couple of months
You cannot expect to measure performance when you have just changed a diet
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scarter
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17-09-2008, 05:49 PM
I'm quite sure you don't feed based on emotion - I didn't intend to upset anyone. I'm just trying to be nice and let people know that I'm not disregarding their advice because I think they're wrong. It's just that i'm interested in exploring a different feeding model.

But I appreciate all that you've contributed and I assure you I do take all opinions into consideration!

We're sticking with kibble until she's mature and we're now hoping to get contributions from feeders of kibble/raw fed working dogs as I think that's the direction we'll take when we do start to introduce raw in her diet.

So I am still looking for advise from those types of raw feeder!!
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scarter
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17-09-2008, 05:58 PM
Actually folks - have I made a social blunder here?

Am I mistaking this board for a discussion board for ALL types of raw feeders when in fact it's really just for BARF and / or Prey model feeders? If so, then say the word and I'll scurry away quietly and take my questions elsewhere
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