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Tassle
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11-03-2011, 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by magpye View Post
To my mind a dogs tail is vital for communication and balance and it's horrifically cruel to dock it. I don't think dogs should have benn deliberately bred to be tailless either but there you go... Though dogs do learn to manage without their tails as people can learn to manage without tongues, or thumbs, or limbs, and leave perfectly happy healthy lives, that sell doesn't excuse the deliberate mutilation.

There now I've broken my promise in the original post and made it about the why's and why nots of tail docking.

There will still be cruel or old fashioned people who will dock their dogs, but hopefully the general public will start getting used to seeing these breeds with tails and demand for tailless dogs will go down. The puppy mills have stopped docking their dogs which can only be a good thing, so many puppies die from infection from bad tail jobs or people who think banding a tail is an exceptable and cheap alternative to a vet bill...

Don't get me started on ear cropping! That ban worked now we just need to see an end to all puppy mutilation for the sake of one or two dogs who might damage a tail while working or worse just for tradition, for looks and for fashion!
Agreed......
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smokeybear
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11-03-2011, 10:25 AM
But why and how are so many of the gundogs in crufts today docked when I thought the practice was being frowned on in showing circles and is certainly illegal in this country?

Not read the whole thread but to answer your questions:

It is NOT frowned upon in showing circles
It is NOT illegal in this country for certain breeds eg spaniels, HPRs and terriers IF certain criteria are met in order for them to work.

What is UNFAIR is that dogs which are dual purpose eg meet the kennel club standard in both physique AND working ability, are DENIED the ability to be shown at Crufts IF they have been docked post the docking laws.

This will inevitably mean that HPRs go the way that spaneils and Labs have gone, a show side and a working line.

If you think it is cruel, you do not have to support this, but it is much more cruel to have a dog with long standing and often incurable injuries sustained by a dog that is working and have to have the tail docked often more than once as an adult.
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Petticoat
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11-03-2011, 10:27 AM
I personally dislike tail docking, just my own opinion! Jamie had his tail amputated for medical reasons and although he is better without it, I hate seeing him 'tail-less'... yes I know he is a 'tailed' breed, but most dogs are born with tails, with a few exceptions of course!
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Tupacs2legs
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11-03-2011, 10:29 AM
having had a dog that had to learn how to walk again..i will never ever agree with docking for the reason 'just in case'

without his tail he would never of done it.
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magpye
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11-03-2011, 10:36 AM
Nope... I still don't think that mutilating an entire litter of puppies is a worthwhile or good way to ensure none if them 'might' need their tail amputated as adults. That's a ridiculous argument...

You can't hack off a limb because some people hurt them... That would be like saying all babies should have surgeries to remove their appendixes and tonsils because some will grow up to have appendicitis or tonsillitis.

If a dog can't do the job it was bred for because it's tail gets in the way, then maybe it's not the right dog for the job. Don't just hack off bits till it will do! That's a very Victorian way of looking at the world... Dog must do it's job and if it can't we'll just keep cutting bits off until it can! Bloomin ridiculous argument!
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Tassle
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11-03-2011, 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by magpye View Post
Nope... I still don't think that mutilating an entire litter of puppies is a worthwhile or good way to ensure none if them 'might' need their tail amputated as adults. That's a ridiculous argument...

You can't hack off a limb because some people hurt them... That would be like saying all babies should have surgeries to remove their appendixes and tonsils because some will grow up to have appendicitis or tonsillitis.

If a dog can't do the job it was bred for because it's tail gets in the way, then maybe it's not the right dog for the job. Don't just hack off bits till it will do! That's a very Victorian way of looking at the world... Dog must do it's job and if it can't we'll just keep cutting bits off until it can! Bloomin ridiculous argument!
Can't give you reps - but agree - again.
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labradork
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11-03-2011, 10:45 AM
Originally Posted by magpye View Post
To my mind a dogs tail is vital for communication and balance and it's horrifically cruel to dock it. I don't think dogs should have benn deliberately bred to be tailless either but there you go... Though dogs do learn to manage without their tails as people can learn to manage without tongues, or thumbs, or limbs, and leave perfectly happy healthy lives, that sell doesn't excuse the deliberate mutilation.

There now I've broken my promise in the original post and made it about the why's and why nots of tail docking.

There will still be cruel or old fashioned people who will dock their dogs, but hopefully the general public will start getting used to seeing these breeds with tails and demand for tailless dogs will go down. The puppy mills have stopped docking their dogs which can only be a good thing, so many puppies die from infection from bad tail jobs or people who think banding a tail is an exceptable and cheap alternative to a vet bill...

Don't get me started on ear cropping! That ban worked now we just need to see an end to all puppy mutilation for the sake of one or two dogs who might damage a tail while working or worse just for tradition, for looks and for fashion!
You would be very surprised how often breeds like Spaniels and the lightly coated HPR breeds (who, when left undocked, have long whip like tails) endure injury to undocked tails when working.

It is also a myth that a dog cannot communicate with a docked tail. My dog dogs docked tail is just as expressive as a full one, whether it be wagging a mile a minute, tucked in because she is scared, etc. Besides, there is FAR more to communication than just a tail. Also, is there any actual evidence that tail docking is detrimental to the balance of a dog? given the number of Spaniel and HPR breeds that are versatile in all kinds of working roles, I don't believe for a minute their 'balance' has been affected by being docked.

If done correctly following proper procedures, docking is NOT cruel to the dog. There is a difference between a person perceiving something to be cruel, and it ACTUALLY being cruel and detrimental to the life of the animal. If you want to talk about cruel, what about the breeding of dogs who can't breath properly? or the breeding of dogs with physical and structural deformities? or the breeding of some breeds who are so riddled with genetic health problems that they are lucky to make past the age of 7 or 8? now THAT is cruel.
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kobi
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11-03-2011, 10:47 AM
Kobi is a good example.
If the litter had not been routinely docked I would have had a dog with tail.
I do not intend to hunt through heavy cover so he would have been fine in this household with a tail.
I believe the decision has to be made early in a litter as late docking can have complications,as can amputations because of injuries.
I think game people will be have their reasons and are strongly for docking and it is not illegal.
Non working like a tail.
Does the law have the balance right
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Borderdawn
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11-03-2011, 11:35 AM
Amazing how naturally bobbed breeds dont have any problem with balance and communication isnt it?
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ClaireandDaisy
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11-03-2011, 11:47 AM
Maybe I`ve only seen Brittanys with tails? Or maybe it`s that I`m less used to seeing docked dogs. The bobtail just looked weird to me. How does it affect balance, I wonder.
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