So the collar is worn even if not needed? Just in case? But the collar did not stop your dog attacking another dog on your drive nor another dog over the fence?

If the dogs biggest problem is aggression and the collar is useless for that - I really am struggling to understand your POV on this Gnasher. You are being quite contradictory.

Dog has perfect recall. A dog with PERFECT recall will never get into trouble while the owner is with them because the owner will just PERFECTLY RECALL THEM and put a stop to it instantly.

But it seems you are saying that your dog got this perfect recall from you giving it electric shocks yet you still need to further train it because the perfect recall doesn't work as soon as your dog sees something that 'sets it off'?

I know this thread has become very long but, if you re read back over just your own posts you should be able to see how you are changing what you say to suit whatever is said to you to disagree. Just like you stopped saying 'stim'.

As for all this WOLF stuff and Pack Leader stuff and no altrnative to an electric shock method other than to PTS. Well you are, to me, just making it sound very much like you have a totally uncontrolled dog and one that maybe shouldn't be at large in the community - electric shock collar or not (as it hasn't helped on at least 2 occasions).

Just the simple fact that you stated you 'didn't have time' to start on the dog aggression stuff with the aggressive Black Lab spoke reams to me about your attitude towards training. OK one has to set aside time to attend a CLASS if it is held once a week on a certain time on a certain day. But training, to me, is something that continues day in day out and you reinforce what they've learned whether there is any need for them to 'do what they've learned' or not. How much time do you intend to spend with this aggressive black lab to 'train' your dog?

As for CALM being the buzz word or watch word. Again, if you read over your own posts here - I think you will have to put a lot of work in on yourself before you can achieve that!

And they do say dogs pick up on their owner's state of mind

So you think you know more about wolves than David Mech

Have a look at this http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss...s_20416-1.html

It states:

What we know now, thanks to Mech and others, is that in the wild, a wolf pack is a family, consisting of a mated pair and their offspring of the past one to three years. Occasionally two or three families may group together. As the offspring mature they disperse from the pack; the only long-term members of the group are the breeding pair. By contrast, in captivity unrelated wolves are forced to live together for many years, creating tension between mature adults that doesn’t happen in a natural, wild pack.

The second part of it:

http://eileenanddogs.com/2013/05/23/...e-hierarchy-2/

of cause it is

Let's face anything else you tried with Ben failed, only the severest of punishments ( pain) succeeded .....( sometimes)

Ah, but on the other hand, talk to modern up to date behaviourists and trainers, who work with dogs successfully, and they will usually say that you don't need to be at all concerned about it.

I used to follow it a bit, when I read John Fisher's book, but then he did his U turn and agreed the dogs were more likely just "yobs" than "dominant".

My two BSDs would have been termed "dominant" by many, yet they slept on my bed, ate before me, etc but I did train them simple manners, that is what makes the difference at the end of the day.

Could give you loads of links Gnasher, but I know there's no point LOL

Just going back to this one.

Using the technique you describe you will be putting your dog at, or over, threshold.

You need to use a technique that builds a positive association with your dog clearly below threshold. And if your dog doesn't like black labs, don't start with a black lab.

And I'm confused by the comment 'wolf pack theory doesn't work'. It's not an issue of working or not, it's an issue of theory, the interpretation and practice of it.

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/shockcollars.html

I disagree. We don't continually use it, Ben wears it true, but he has not been zapped for a very long time.

It is not a punishment - never has been - and it most certainly is not cruel.

Yes and no - I believe David Mech made a serious error when he did his volte face. He was studying wolves on and island beginning with E - Ellesmere I think it was. As such, it was an artificial situation because in normal wolf packs, they have access to huge tracts of land. Packs split, break up, wolves move on and form new packs, the whole thing is very fluid. The Ellesmere Island pack did not have this luxury, and so the behaviour he was observing - IF he was observing and interpreting it correctly - was un-natural, therefore has no scientific credence.

I am very suspicious of someone, anyone, who does such a major volte face. How could he have got it so wrong in the first place? I am extremely sceptical, especially when I can see with my own eyes with artificial wolf packs at places like Combe Martin and the Wolf Trust pack behaviour right before my eyes!

You know me too well Wys ... you are absolutely right.

I cannot deny the evidence I see before my eyes, every single day of my life. You only have my word for this of course.

I really will try and get this video done. Just at the moment is impossible. I have a memorial service for 300 people to arrange, amongst a host of other stuff - like daughter about to drop, work issues, life in general!!