Well, I don't believe in children staying at home once they achieve adulthood - as soon as mine left boarding school at 18, she was off to college in Milton Keynes, living independently from us!!

Northern breeds DO need to run free - Alaskan Malamutes, Siberian Huskies, all of them like to run free. Most Alaskan Mal breeders say you can never let them off the lead, to exercise them you need to work them in harness. Ditto Sibes. I disagree with this - Tai is a Utonagan - a mix of mal, husky and very very distant wolf. Ben is a mix of mal, husky and wolf, and his father Hal was a fourth generation wolf mixed with husky and wolf. All 3 of them would have been MISERABLE if they had never been let off the lead. All 3 of them would ADORE to work in harness, but we cannot afford the thousands of pounds this would cost. They ADORE coming for bike rides with us - we have a contraption that goes on both sides of the rear wheel - one dog on one side, one dog on the other, and they LOVE this and of course are not running free because they are attached to OH's bicycle. But we have only been able to use this in the Forest of Dean, round us there aren't any suitably wide bike trails, although we do have Brampton Valley railway line which we can take them along. But for every day, they need to be let off the lead to run free.

Northern breeds are VERY different to most other dogs - IMO you CANNOT keep them on long lines or leads. You either have to train them to have a good recall, OR you have to have pots of money and buy a rig to run them in.

And if I condemned Ben to a life on the lead I would feel that I had failed him was I not prepared to try an unpleasant option just once, for one split second. We did, it worked, end of.

Most dogs will learn using kindness, treats, toys. Neither Hal nor Ben did/have. Food means nothing to them, they like balls, that's the only toy they love, but they are not enough to keep them amused for more than a few minutes. Kindness of course they like, but again it does not trip their trigger sufficiently to stop them dashing off if they wanted to. Ben in particular, we did actually train Hal to have a reasonable recall because we had him from puppihood, but Ben no chance.

EXACTLY!! This is what I am trying to say!! There are many dogs who have been traumatised by the use of an e collar ... but my boy Ben IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!

Of course OH has shocked Ben - but not for AGES. It simply has not been necessary. He has probably only ever been zapped around 5 times in his whole life

I hardly call this excessive, or cruel. Just the opposite.

Hi Gnasher

I don't necessarily think Ben is anxious or fearful (I would have to reserve judgement because sometimes as a professional I can see stuff that owners can't) but I am just explaining that shock collar trainers tend to explain the yelping by saying that the dog is yelping in surprise.

They always say that, because it completely covers their ****.

(I don't mean you, I mean the actual trainers).

Wys
x

Again you are giving confusing reports, you say using the collar is a total success , one would assume by this you mean Ben has a reliable recall away from ALL DOGS ( he may otherwise attack) , yet you also say " unless it's a black dog/ lab" which caused the need to use an e.collar in the first place.

That's not a success in my book, you still have the problem you started with black dogs, equals Bens aggression.

You also say you only needed to use it once and her got the message, yet you kept on using it a number of times...why if the first stim cured him


All this due to him not having a good recall hate to think of any trainer who would advocate euthanasia for a poor recall.

I can't really comment on that Gnasher, as I can't see how Ben is behaving, or how he is trained or anything; I don't know how predatory he is, or whether there was another way. As a professional, I don't ever recommend or use shock collars, and if they were that good, I'd be using them left, right and centre to solve so many of my cases.

I'd be lauded as a wonderful trainer who got quick results.

But I don't use them so ....

Taken from a study into effects of shock collar training :


Most importantly, the group of dogs that received a shock for not abiding by a recall (Here) command, were also significantly elevated.

Even more distressing, is that the results remained the same when the dogs were reintroduced to the testing area after four weeks. Their stress levels remained high, even though they did not receive any shocks during this reintroduction period.

The results from Schalke’s study indicate that electronic collars are extremely risky to use even for the short term. Stress levels of the dogs were high after just 7 days, and were elevated as soon as they returned to the shock treatment environment. This is consistent with Polsky’s study, which show that dogs may associate the shock and stress they receive, with the environment itself.

This study provides strong evidence that shock collars are inappropriate for most kinds of dog training, as even common recall training will result in elevated stress levels, and a lower quality of life.




Shock corrections can weaken our bond with our dog.

I have never said to keep your dogs on a lead or long line, I have said to train them to recall so stop putting things in that are not there.

When training a recall you have to start in your home before you work with your dog outside even in your garden. If your dog does not have a good recall at home you won't get one outside. I am not saying you don't have this with your dogs, I don't know, but once you have a good recall in your house you then work in your garden, you have to have 100% before you move on to the next stage.

You can get small carts for them to pull, in the USA using scooters with dogs is gaining in popularity, I exercise my dogs with a mobility scooter, they love it because they can go faster and if I am walking them, they still go off lead several times a week and are under a lot more control. Even when off lead I keep control of them, I interact with them all the time. 2 love to chase a ball, 2 love to play tugger and race each other round with the tugger between them, another loves to chase birds, she doesn't have any chance of catching any. Dogs can be free and off lead and still under control. As owners we have to work out how best to have our dogs under control and still meet their needs, just running free and not under control can lead to accidents happening. Using a shock collar to get/keep control of our dogs can fail for many reasons, they are so hyped up they don't feel the shock, the collar has failed etc. Even when a dog is on a long line something can happen so you don't have control, the line or clip breaks and the dog takes off. The only safe way to have a dog under control is to train them, the more you train the more reliable the dog will be.

Were have I said that your dog is traumatised by the collar?

Were have I said that you have been cruel or used it excessively?

Stop attacking me for things I haven't written.

To me having to zap a dog 5 times is 5 times too much, doesn't matter when the dog was zapped or how long it has been since it was last zapped.

At least I took the trouble to research these collars, learnt how to use them and when to use them before making up my mind about them.

You are right, Ben is not frightened of anything - he is a git - he just does not want to be compliant, which is exactly why the e collar has been so brilliant - with Ben it is all about pack and rank - I know this is an anathema to you, but I do have 15 years experience of living with wolf crosses and I can read my Benny Boy like a book - I learned at the paws of the Boss, Ben's father Hal. With wolf crosses more than any other breed or type of dog, rank and pack is EVERYTHING. I can look at Ben and know exactly what he is feeling, how he is feeling, what he is thinking. And what I see and know is that I now have a dog who is totally and 100% happy - safe in the knowledge that we are his pack leaders, we have control of him, we can control him, he can respect us, he can trust us. He is one very very happy dog - for the first time in his life, he can relax, he can be himself, safe in the knowledge that WE are boss, so he does not need to be.