Smokeybear, Leanne and nndogs - and you other gun dog people

Louie has mastered retrieve and hold but only for a few seconds - so how do I get the retrieve to hand? I would like to clicker train it but do not have enough hands.

Peedie has kindly sent me a book on chaining events together but I have not yet gone home to receive it.

Is there a sort of game I could play with him to get him to retrieve to hand?

I have the retrieve to my feet - but he has retrieved to hand before a few times.

I have been on a gun dog forum and got a lot of stick because he retrieves but not to hand - he is not going to be worked or competed as he isn't a pedigree and has no idea when to stop working.

But Leanne said something to me a while back that I've just been mulling over - why can't he be as good as the others? Why not train to the best standard the others do - so I am determined to do it now.

But I need your help Please and thank you

I think if you do a search I actually posted very detailed instructions on how to train the retrieve in a step by step exercise which teaches you how to get a retrieve either to hand as for gundog/Woriking Trial purposes or in a present for Schutzhund/Obedience purposes.

Can I just say, a dog that has retrieved a dummy a couple of times has not "mastered the retrieve", to progress you really need to fully understand what a "strong retrieve" actually is.

This is not to dampen your enthusiasm but to manage your expectations which, from some of your other posts on this and other subjects, I think are unrealistic.

I speak as someone who judges ticket in WT and trained an awful lot of dogs to retrieve to the highest possible standard, but more importantly wants to help others (as long as they do not respond with a "yebbut, nobbut, tried that it did not work etc" )!

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=144908

You might recognise this........

Maybe "mastered" was a strong word - but I'm proud of him. He went from a dog that would mess about to one who will bring the dummy straight back to me 95% of the time anyway.

The reason I started this thread was because I really want to prove people that I can do it, that Louie can do it, that just because he is a gun dog cross - which is kinda unliked - I've discovered, he can do things just as good as their pedigrees if not better.
Also I'd like to see how different people taught their dogs, to share their mistakes and give me good tips that will work, although I fully respect that you are a trainer and you have your no nonsense approach to things, I don't do well with "you're doing this wrong" I work better with "perhaps try this". Which is probably why me and you have clashed a few times on some topics - my Dad's genes - his fault .

I like positive encouragement I suppose, but if someone tells me I can't do something - unless it is ridiculously horrifying to me - I will prove them wrong.

So SB - you think you could help me without us butting heads? I promise not to be pigheaded

Also what thread am I searching for?

well said

it, that Louie can do it, that just because he is a gun dog cross - which is kinda unliked - I've discovered, he can do things just as good as their pedigrees if not better.

ANY dog can be taught to retrieve well, it matters not if it is a gundog or no breed at all and MANY such cross breeds work very successfully on shoots etc.

No trainer, including me, has a problem with people not agreeing with their methods, that is up to individuals; what we MAY have a problem with is when people say "x does not work" when it clearly and demonstrably does!

I think the thread you are looking for is linked in this thread.........

Don't be in a rush; that is when behaviours fall apart, because the foundation was insufficiently deep and wide.

Think
Plan
Do

 The sit and wait (self control is required as a dog should retrieve NOTHING until and unless specifically told to) It is the owner who determines what the dog should be retrieving, where and when. Dogs which instigate games by picking up toys, sticks have gone “self employed” and may retrieve, but on their terms not ours.

Tick - he can retrieve when told to - he does stays then retrieves all the time. However faced with several objects I don't think he would retrieve a certain item - but this is curious I may try his dummy retrieves with his toys around - unless thats a bad idea?

 The mark (this may be necessary for example in the field to retrieve a shot bird quickly to hand, it also maximises speed in the retrieve exercises in Obedience, Schutzhund, GWT and Working Trials). However it is not required for the “blind” retrieve in GWT or the search square exercise in Working Trials. Dogs should be trained in both seen and blind retrieves in order to develop tenacity.

Louie can do both blind and seen retrieves.

 The pick up (obviously if the dog does not pick up the item you wish to be retrieved you are unable to regain possession of the item).

He can find things - is that the same as a pick up?

 The hold (dogs have to learn how to hold the article in a manner which causes no damage to the item in question)

The mouthing is down to a minimum now - and he will hold for a few seconds

 The turn and carry (if the dog does not turn around you will not regain possession of the item and carrying things will alter the dog’s centre of gravity and how it moves)

This is the fetch bit right?

 The present to hand (spitting the item out on the floor is not acceptable because it could lead to damage or loss)

I need help with this one.

He knows a hand touch with his nose - it was the first thing he was taught - will that help?

KW - who were you talking to?

You are rushing again, read the WHOLE thread, it gives you a step by step plan on how to train the retrieve!

This is what we fell out over before remember?

I disagree Smokey bear - I have a plan, I am starting at the finish so I get the retrieve to hand. I don't always use a clicker when training, I like my dogs to know that a good dog is the same or a tidbit. The throw of the dummy after a retrieve to hand is a reward also

I never said you could not train it, I said the way you were going about it was wrong, which it was!

except SLB never posted any such sentiment.

is that the royal 'we'?

maybe the other larger group of 'we', prefer to be educated via the operant conditioning priciple of positive reinforcement, and preferably without craning our necks to hear it