Then perhaps you should take it up with the breeders you are critisizing, because I see no problem with the dogs they exhibit, none at all.

So you should be!

Im sure it will, but dont rip to shreds those that are enjoying success now.

Moderate in YOUR definition, not in many others, all opinion.

There certainly is more to life than showing, Id like to see the work he has been doing, I love the HPR breeds out in the field, post some pics.

Same here, I have one dog I show, 2 I have never showed and one that decided it was "boring" so I stopped showing her. Still mean as much to me as all the others.

What are you talking about? There is no argument Rips, its purely and utterly YOUR opinion on a dogs coat! Nothing more!

I don't do smileys---it means grin. It comes of years of e mailing.

I have no idea what the rest of your post means .

rune

Oh I'm not ripping any breeder to shreds, I'm just interested in debating the topic is all. It is a forum after all! Like I said in the beginning, the very heavily coated ESS are becoming numerically less now, resorting back to the correct term "moderate feathering".

And of course you wouldn't see anything wrong with the dogs, you're 100% pro showing. Showing can do no wrong in your eyes. JMO of course. Me I prefer to look at things individually from all angles and then make up my mind.

Re moderate feathering, please see below my previous post:

Again I will produce the definition of moderate:
Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme:

The second dog pic I posted is not moderately feathered. A working gundog does not need that amount of feathering, it was not and is not necessary. It does not serve any purpose other than to make the dog appear more glamorous. It has been bred in due to fashion reasons by people who had little regard for the dogs working background (although it has to be said this is slowly changing and with it dogs of excessive coat that I've posted are now on the decline). This isn't an opinion, it's fact. If that was the correct coat according to the standard then ESS will have looked that way since the year dot. Yet low and behold when you look back at the show pictures from decades ago the ESS looked more like the first picture I posted. Therefore the conclusion is the dogs have been bred with excessive coat so as to look more glamorous for the show ring. It doesn't matter how many times you ask me to look at the links, this fact will never change (I have looked, many, many times, everytime you've posted them in such a debate in fact, although I have already stated that I don't feel Mompesson are one of the kennels to breed dogs with excessive coats (see post 51)). Pictures of dogs retrieving in grassland is lovely - when they are Labradors.

Just incase you missed it.

Here are a few on Grinton Moor this March. Very difficult to get pics when you train and work alone, but hopefully that will be changing in the near future.















I'm so, so pleased with him. He's such a joy to train and work. The trainer would've taken him home if I'd let her, but I passed.

Lovely pics and a lovely place.

I haven't been back with Etta but have been quartering and she is stopping on the whistle now and dropping but not as fast as I would like. The rest she can more or less do but needs to keep practising and her self control lets her down sometimes (G)!

I'd like to do the scurry this w/e at a local game fair but I don't think it is going to happen.

It is great to see them doing what they were designed to do.

rune

Is Etta the Spaniel? I can't remember!

Oscar is amazing, it's awe inspiring to see how much of it is just pure instinct. I think he would benefit from some brace hunting tbh as he's weakest point is the flush. He points and then when you send him in he just stares at you, almost too scared to move!

But at 15 months old he quarters nicely, needs to gain more confidence and go wider mind, points and is now learning to retrieve which he loves! Not bad going and it's not a lot to do with me before people think I've got a big head!

Have you tried blowing the stop whistle and immediately throwing a dummy up? You need to make sure the dog is steady, but I tend to find it helps to turn a negative command (stopping!) into a positive one by introducing a retrieve if the stop command is followed.

I wanted to do a scurry with Oscar at Raby Castle Game Fair, but it was up hill and out of sight and I don't think he would've had the confidence to go out of sight. He's very much a Mummy's boy! Maybe next year though, good luck with yours if it happens.

Thanks, I use the ball generally as I am usually together with that and the whistle and dog at the same time! Then the ball goes as reward. I also use it for control so she has to sit and wait then I get it or she is sent. She can't sit through a huge throw yet but she is fine if other people chuck the dummy about, ball is higher value.

Dummy isn't used a lot because I am working on clickering the pick up and the hold, she tends to mouth a bit to get it straight in her mouth. She isn't very big and she does find it a bit large I think, she has the same issues with larger balls. She retrieves fine to hand.

I have the opposite problem with the quartering and TBH I have no idea what she'd do if she put a rabbit up---I have a feeling the stop whistle wouldn't hack it!

Thats quite important I think!

Its fun though whatever she does. She is a the springer and she is 15mths now.

rune

Ok gotcha now, I did wonder.

Do you have any of him on point? It looks like he is having a walk across the moors there, I love to see them point. Take a video camera next time if you can, its a joy to watch again and again. One of my Borders does it.

Not sure what all your bold print means, of course I am pro showing thats pretty obvious, but my dogs WORK too, as they should. Just like show Springers can and do, you just dont want to see. Id love to see a pic of ANY dog in THICK cover, you cant see the damn things!

I find myself in total agreement with you here!

I really like the idea that I have a dog that can be trained to do so many diverse things.

KC events are out for gundog stuff as she is not registered and of course it'd be a waste of time to show her even if she was registered. Other than that pretty much everything is within reach and she is capable of it. Which is what I wanted.

So to me the breed standard is irrelevant, as it is to a lot of owners---probably the majority.

rune