Ok I`m going to try again Thordell

I think if drugs that have side effects on humans after long term use would still have the same effects on animals with a shorter life span. Surely any body aging is the same whether its short or long age span?? Isn`t that why animal testing goes on?
All the drugs we have today have been developed from plants & herbs & so do supplements
There are people around the world still using only those herbs & plants in there natural state today, rather than the *conventional* drugs made up by pharmists, with great success & in some cases, more success than prescribed drugs!

Christine, Spain.

If a particular drug takes 10 to 15 years for a side effect to cause concern then giving that drug to a 8 year old dog can't effect their live span and if at the same time it improves their quality of life I for one would be happy to administer said drug. But what you decide is best for your dogs is your decision just as I decide what is best for mine.

Hi Thordell, small dogs live to late teens, early 20`s tho don`t they & a lot of long term use side effects start way before 10/15yrs

Getting back on topic, it wasn`t me who gave mis information about VitC, all I was doing was passing on info about it from a vet, with references of trials, so the poster could make an informed & therefore the best decision, which is what I like to do Thordell

VITAMIN C

New Forms and New Uses in Dogs


© L. Phillips Brown, D.V.M.

The common wisdom is that humans, other primates, guinea pigs, and a few birds need to get vitamin C in their diets. Since the rest of the animals produce it within their own bodies, they no doubt make enough, right? Well, maybe not. In this article, a doctor of veterinary medicine looks at the effects of vitamin C supplementation in dogs and its benefit in fighting arthritis, and other ailments.

Dogs of all ages suffer with various joint and spinal disorders, including hip dysplasia, osteoarthritis, non-specific arthritis, osteochrondritis, spondylitis and spondylosis. Treatment often consists of rest. surgery and/or steroids, nonspecific anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS), aspirin, penicillamine or methotrexate. Many therapeutic compounds produce only short-term benefits and may actually accelerate the progression of joint destruction.

Nutritional Considerations

Vitamin C is a vital nutrient in bone and cartilage metabolism. Although dogs, unlike humans, can manufacture their own vitamin C, they may not produce enough to counter the effects of aging, stress, inherited dysfunctions, environmental irritants and poor quality or high fat pet foods.

In fact, early studies in dogs and horses suggest that daily vitamin C supplementation might be beneficial in reducing chronic inflammation. Unfortunately; ordinary vitamin C may cause gastrointestinal upsets i dogs. A form of vitamin C that would promote higher levels of intracellular ascorbic acid without negative side effects would be a useful and unique product.

Clinical Study

The effect of different forms of vitamin C on various locomotor dysfunctions of dogs were investigated by veterinarians at The Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Utah. Over 100 case studies were evaluated, using varying strengths and combinations of mineral ascorbates, ascorbic acid and microcrystalline cellulose during a six-month period. The results indicate that a patented vitamin C ascorbate / vitamin C metabolite complex, administered orally, may have application for the reduction of discomfort associated with nonspecific, chronic inflammatory disorders of dogs. The vitamin C ascorbate / metabolite complex used in the study was Ester-C.

Product Background

According to the manufacturer, Inter-Cal Corporation, of Prescott, Arizona, Ester-C is a patented ascorbate supplement containing calcium ascorbate, naturally occurring dehydroascorbate and the vitamin C metabolite, threonate. Threonate permits ascorbate to be more rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, to cross cell membranes more efficiently, reach higher cellular levels and be excreted more slowly than ordinary vitamin C. Ester-C ascorbate is pH neutral and believed to be water and partially fat soluble.

Mechanism Of Action

Vitamin C may act as an immunoresponsive and chrondrogenerative agent. In degenerative (i.e., aging) or inflammatory conditions, collagen breakdown is excessive, resulting in joint discomfort and skeletal changes. A product that would provide high and prolonged levels of ascorbic acid would help compression resistance of cartilage, mobilized white blood cells to the site of inflammation, and enhance prostaglandin synthesis. The net result would be increased comfort and mobility.

Conclusion

78 percent of the study dogs receiving Ester-C calcium ascorbate showed improved mobility within four to five days.

The consistency and degree of response demonstrated that Ester-C calcium ascorbate provided symptomatic relief to the study dogs suffering from selected chronic joint and musculoskeletal disorders. The findings that the condition of many of the "improved" dogs deteriorated rapidly upon discontinuance of Ester-C ascorbate further verified its usefulness as primary or adjunctive therapy. These studies reinforced the earlier observations that supplemental Ester-C calcium ascorbate corrected mobility problems of dogs and horses.

The findings suggest that, although dogs can manufacture endogenous ascorbic acid, the amount produced my not be sufficient to prevent or counteract stresses associated with aging, injury or joint malpositioning.

From the results of this study, there is significant evidence to recommend oral Ester-C calcium ascorbate in the management of non-specific musculoskeletal disorders of dogs.

References

Adkins, T. O. and Kronfield, D.S.: Diet of racing sled dogs affects erythrocyte depression by stress. Canadian Vet. J., 23:260-3, 1982

Allen, T.A., and Hand, M.S.: Conditionally Essential Nutrients. Proc. 8th ACVIM Forum, pp. 809-811, 1990

Belfield, W.O.: Chronic subclinical scurvy and canine hip dysplasia. Veterinary Medicine/Small Animal Clinician, 1399-1401, 1976

Berg, G.E.: Polyascorbate (C-Flex), and interesting alternative by problems in support and movement apparatus in dogs. Norwegian Veterinary Journal 102:579-581, 1990

Dockter, C unpublished data.

Donoghue, S., Kronfeld, D.S. and Banta, C.A.: A possible vitamin C requirements in racing sled dogs fed a high fat diet, In: Nutrition Malnutrition and Diet in Dogs and Cats ed. by meyer, H and Kienzle, E. pp. 110-114, Hanover, Tierarztliche Hochschule, 1988.

Fay, M.J.: Possible effect of ascorbic acid metabolites on the cellular uptake of ascorbic acid and other compounds. A dissertation for degree of Doctor of Philosophy, University of Mississippi, 1992

Goodman, S., Vitamin C; The Master Nutrient, Keats Publishing, Inc. Connecticut, 1991

Kronfeld, D.S.: Stress supplements: Protein and vitamin C, Purebred Dogs / Kennel Gazette, 100.10:8-9. 1983

Lewis, D.L., Morris, Jr. M.L., and Hand, M.S.: Small Animal Clinical Nutrition Mark Morris Assoc., Kansas, 1990

Newman, N.L., unpublished data.

Smith, C.: Moro on vitamin C, Natural Pet, Vol2, No. 6:18-19, 1993

Stein, D.: Natural Healing for Dogs and Cats, The crossing press, California, 1993

Christine said "Getting back on topic, it wasn’t me who gave mis information about VitC,"

Don't think I said anyone had given misinformation, just thought I had read that there was a problem with vit C and with other supplements, can't remember where or what it was I read and was asking for clarification.

As to long term effects of drugs I am sure you will accept that each case must be taken and treated on the individually circumstances and that it is sometimes a choice between quality of life and length of life and we as a dogs owner are the only ones who can judge what we consider the best course of action. I judge that because a dogs life span is shorter than ours the use of drugs that may cause side effects in humans may well be used to good effect on a dog particularly if it improves the quality of live, but then I would think the same if it were me being treated, I am all for quality over length if the choice is between the two.

*Christine, as a matter of interest, overdose of Vit C, and other self administered vitimins and medication can cause damage in humans and no doubt in canines, what is a safe dose per kg body weight for canines. *

You see Thordell, what you wrote above is saying Vitc CAN cause harm in humans & no doubt dogs & was contradictory to mine & topdogs post. I have never read anywhere that states that, everything I`ve read is either good about it or else says it makes no difference & a waste of time. You posting that is how rumours start. If you wanted clarification you could have read topdogs posts as he gave it.

Long term side effects of drugs.....well Id rather stay on topic of vitC in this thread but if you like you could always start another post on it & I`d probably debate it there
Christine.