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Meg
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04-03-2017, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by Legacy23 View Post
Hi Chris, how long ago did you use it? I just bought this a couple of weeks ago so maybe it has different levels than yours. To answer your questions I bought it because although he was doing well he could have been doing better and the e-collar is a helpful tool for some situations. Also, as I said in my post I have not used the shock mode in him. I've only used it on myself.

My model has levels from 0 to 100 and they say most dogs levels are around 3 or 4. I didn't feel it until I turned it up to 25 and even then it wasn't pain that I felt, it was kind of weird but it made me laugh actually.

I hope that clarifies a few things for you.
Those who have the patience and the knowledge to train a dog use positive reinforcement methods those who don't use shock collars.
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Legacy23
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05-03-2017, 05:58 AM
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
It was a 'modern' collar, Kevin.

The problem with the damn things is that you don't know if it hurts. Both our experiences were different as were all the student's experience of the collar in the class situation. Every dog will feel the collar differently too. You can't know in advance what any dog will feel and what level they will feel it at. Let's face it, if they worked without pain, why would you need more than the vibrate mode?

What you achieve in shock mode is done in fear of pain or at the very least heavy discomfort. I want achievements to be made because my dog understands what I want, not because of fear of the consequences
I think you're correct when you say every dog will feel it differently, just like every human would. At first I thought shock collars were cruel but after studying the work of what I would call a phenomenal trainer (Michael Ellis), I decided to revisit the concept.

As I said, I've only ever used the shock mode on myself and could not tell that it was actually working until level 25. I feel pretty confident that anything in the single digits would not cause my dog any pain. But I can only speak for my pup and no one else's.

Thanks for keeping this discussion respectful.
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Legacy23
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05-03-2017, 06:02 AM
Originally Posted by Meg View Post
What I suggest for dog tortures is do us all a favour, stick the collar around you neck, turn to high and leave it there
Meg, I see the smiley face in your comment so I hope that means that you are joking. If not, do you really think I am a dog torturer? Because I did state that I have never used the shock mode on my dog, only vibrate and beep mode. Do you think that those modes are cruel too?
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Besoeker
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05-03-2017, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Legacy23 View Post
Hey Brenda, the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think it hurts.
So how do you think it works?

Electric training collars are already banned in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia, Germany and in some states in Australia.

As they should be here in UK. In my opinion.
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05-03-2017, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Besoeker View Post
So how do you think it works?

Electric training collars are already banned in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia, Germany and in some states in Australia.

As they should be here in UK. In my opinion.
I think the dog feels the shock and registers it as a physical sensation, the same way I did. But not necessarily as pain.

I find it hard to believe that something I can barely feel would cause pain to my pup. Also, just because it's banned somewhere doesn't mean that's right. APBTs are banned in places but that doesn't mean they're all bad.
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Chris
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05-03-2017, 09:18 PM
You've already talked yourself into it Kevin so nothing will change your mind, but something to think about, dogs work to avoid the shock - that should tell you that they find it aversive. If they didn't, they wouldn't work to avoid it.

The whole ethos of shock collar training is, to me, based on fear. The dog fears the shock, the dog stops doing whatever behaviour to stop the shock from happening.

Not how I'd ever want to train another living creature
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Besoeker
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05-03-2017, 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by Legacy23 View Post
I think the dog feels the shock and registers it as a physical sensation, the same way I did. But not necessarily as pain.

I find it hard to believe that something I can barely feel would cause pain to my pup. Also, just because it's banned somewhere doesn't mean that's right. APBTs are banned in places but that doesn't mean they're all bad.
I mentioned that the dog (the one I had when I was school age) got an electric shock. We were walking by an electric fence. Bravado made me want to try to hold it which I did with one hand.

For me it was tolerable. But then my dog came up to my free hand and sniffed it as a friendly gesture like dogs do.
I had rubber boots on - he didn't. The shock went through me, through him, and into the ground. It was a helluva belt and he took off home faster than a speeding bullet.

Coincidently, or otherwise, my career has been in electrical engineering. I've had a few electrical shocks. You don't develop immunity.
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Jackie
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06-03-2017, 09:55 AM
Originally Posted by Legacy23 View Post
Meg, I see the smiley face in your comment so I hope that means that you are joking. If not, do you really think I am a dog torturer? Because I did state that I have never used the shock mode on my dog, only vibrate and beep mode. Do you think that those modes are cruel too?
What happens when those modes stop working, if you never intend to use the "shock" stimulus then why not buy a vibrating collar, shock collars work on the basis that the stim shocks the dog into stopping a behaviour, you can argue till the cows come home as to how much it hurts, but the truth is whether it hurts a lot or a little it stops your dog doing something you don`t want it to do.

And from what I have see (on here and other places) is that the dogs behaviour will only comply when it has the collar on, so in effect you are not educating a dog not to do something, all you are doing with a e.collar is educating the dog to the effect of the collar, and I would also add vibrate and beep mode , although less painful.

You did not say why you use this, (apologies if you did ) why you cant get the behaviour you want by less extreme training
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CaroleC
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06-03-2017, 03:07 PM
I agree with Jackie, that it is the wearing of the collar itself being what regulates the behaviour, rather than any real training taking place, and I have been able to prove this to my own satisfaction.
When my neighbour retired from work, she bought two Jack Russell terriers. We have a six foot high solid boarded fence between the properties, but Eddie and one of her Jacks have taken a real dislike to each other. If they are in their gardens at the same time, they spend all their time swearing at each other, and attacking a particular spot at the foot of the fence.
An anti bark collar seemed to be the simplest method of preventing Eddie from retaliating, and the first puff of citronella worked instantly. Perhaps, being a scenthound, he was too sensitive to the smell, but by the second day, he made no attempt to bark - so only a residual smell of citronella - but his spirit was broken too. He trudged around, and did no more than lift an ear if the Jacks came out too. He was so miserable that we relented, and removed the collar, and his bad behaviour returned immediately. We now just try to make sure that we stagger the times that we let our dogs into their gardens.
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Legacy23
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06-03-2017, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
You've already talked yourself into it Kevin so nothing will change your mind, but something to think about, dogs work to avoid the shock -
that should tell you that they find it aversive. If they didn't, they wouldn't work to avoid it.

The whole ethos of shock collar training is, to me, based on fear. The dog fears the shock, the dog stops doing whatever behaviour to stop the shock from
happening.

Not how I'd ever want to train another living creature
So, interestingly enough I have not talked myself into using the shock mode which is why I haven't yet. I always keep my mind open to new ideas and points of view so if I learn something I didn’t already know I will take it into consideration.

You’re right, the dog works to turn off the stim. I don’t personally think the dog fears the stim, I think they don’t particularly like it, which is why they work to turn it off. However, with regards to your comment about not wanting to train another living creature with fear I think that’s a little narrow minded. A classic example is when you’re young and you touch the stove and get burned you don’t do it again for fear of getting burned. There are a lot of things people don’t do for fear of the repercussions.

With that being said, that isn’t how I intend to use the e-collar if I ever decide to use the shock mode.


Originally Posted by Besoeker View Post
I mentioned that the dog (the one I had when I was school age) got an electric shock. We were walking by an electric fence. Bravado made
me want to try to hold it which I did with one hand.

For me it was tolerable. But then my dog came up to my free hand and sniffed it as a friendly gesture like dogs do. I had rubber boots on - he didn't. The shock
went through me, through him, and into the ground. It was a helluva belt and he took off home faster than a speeding bullet.

Coincidently, or otherwise, my career has been in electrical engineering. I've had a few electrical shocks. You don't develop immunity.
That’s an interesting story but I don’t see how it relates.

Originally Posted by Jackie View Post
What happens when those modes stop working, if you never intend to use the "shock" stimulus then why not buy a vibrating collar,
shock collars work on the basis that the stim shocks the dog into stopping a behaviour, you can argue till the cows come home as to how much it hurts, but
the truth is whether it hurts a lot or a little it stops your dog doing something you don`t want it to do.

And from what I have see (on here and other places) is that the dogs behaviour will only comply when it has the collar on, so in effect you are not educating a
dog not to do something, all you are doing with a e.collar is educating the dog to the effect of the collar, and I would also add vibrate and beep mode ,
although less painful.

You did not say why you use this, (apologies if you did ) why you cant get the behaviour you want by less extreme training
Jackie, if my e-collar stops working in any way I will throw it away and buy a new one. I will not let the fact that the vibrate mode is broken force me to use the shock mode. That is just silly. Not once have I said that I will “never” use the shock mode, I just said that I haven’t use it yet. Mainly because I was worried about it hurting him and I don’t want to hurt my pup. However, after trying it on myself I’m certain that it won’t hurt him. He may not like the sensation but he isn’t going to feel any pain. (That’s my opinion)

Also, there are more ways to use the collar than as a que to tell the dog to stop doing something. Typically, it’s the opposite, you apply the stim, ask your dog to do something and when he does the stim goes away.

Lastly, to answer your question I use the collar as a way to get my dog’s attention when he is distracted, off leash and too far away for me to touch him. When a whistle, a command or his name is not getting him to look at me that little vibration works like a charm.
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