What do you do if your dog does not respond to your command?
Prager Hans


If your dog does not obey your command......

it is because you haven`t trained it properly (well enough).
It`s you - not the dog.
The dog is absolutely brilliant at being a dog.
You as a trainer... that needs work.

So shouting, stamping your little foot and blaming the dog really doesn`t help the situation.

Another study conducted by Hiby et al, suggests that non confrontational and positive methods are more useful to dog owners:

http://www.azs.no/artikler/art_training_methods.pdf

Use of harsher methods/punishment was associated with an increase of problem behaviours without concurrent benefits, so they may show a welfare concern. Positive training methods are more likely to be useful to the pet owning community.

Wys
x

I'm just responding in general to the thread here because I think some people seem to have taken the 'alpha roll' and 'dominance' words and just seen red because of the amount of people who misuse and abuse these techniques in an inappropriate manner.

Hans was simply pointing out that if done correctly these techniques can work for the more dominant or aggressive type dogs in order to curb the behaviour before it is out of control. An alpha roll is not someone forcibly rolling a dog, it has already been stated if done in the correct way you wait for the dog to submit to you in that manner and then encourage the submissive-ness by praising whilst the dog is in that position. I'm sure your dogs love a tummy tickle, but it is a submissive behaviour they are offering to you because they see you as 'boss'. If I recall Hans quite openly stated the people who have held dogs down or choked dogs in punishment for something they do not understand, are misusing and not understanding the full concept of the so called 'dominance techniques'. Yes alot of them are outdated and no professional body wants to see a dog be injured by any training technique, which Hans is also saying. If the dog is hurt whilst training something, it is not being done correctly. Those people who are injuring their dogs whilst doing this are either mis-reading their dogs or taking their position as pack leader into a power struggle that should not be there.

People here are right when they state that an 'alpha' wolf will not openly use aggressiveness to obtain leadership and peace within a pack, however they will do so with extreme force if they think a member of the pack is stepping out of line. Females will physically damage lesser females so they cannot be bred, the 'alpha' will actively attack any male who attempts to mate with the 'alpha' female, or is taking their own position to harrass or injure lower ranking members of a pack. Pack hierachy is subtle and often changes especially within the middle ranks it is very fluent and this abuse of power can be seen within these middle ranks. Often the 'second in command' will do the disciplining but the alpha will step in if deemed necessary. So saying that the alpha rules constantly as calm assertive is a wrong assumption. If they see something is out of line they will step up to that mark because they know that if the pack is allowed to fall into disarray the pack cannot hunt and co-operate properly and survive.

I am currently studying a canine psychology course, it is thoroughly up to date and it bases alot of it upon the instinctual pack hierachy system dogs will follow if left in groups of three or more. Dogs in pairs of two tend not to follow a ranking system and are usually on equal grounding if in opposite sex pairs, which is why it is often recommended if you get two dogs you get a boy and a girl. Everyone on here should know that two females together can be a living nightmare if they decide they don't like each other, no matter how much of a 'leader or the dominant one' you are. This course is encouraging positive rewards to train, something I believe Hans also does for his training as again he has stated in his posts. What he is saying is that not all circumstances can use positive training to get results. If the dog knows the behaviour that is required by it and is simply refusing to do it despite being healthy and in full working order, then that dogs needs a correction for not doing as it is told. You are using the dogs natural pack instinct to assert you are the leader and the dog should do as it is told, if you have indeed taught the command correctly in the first place. As Hans also stated it can take up to 100 plus repetitions for a dog to truly associate the positive reward with the command or required action, it's the pavlovian technique used in classical conditioning. Of course each dog has its own time in which it will learn things. This associative learning is also valid for things such as learning a certain situation will receive negative stimulus for the dog, so they learn to avoid it or act out agressively. Hence why doing an alpha roll incorrectly could lead the dog to become aggressive or shut down. What Hans is saying is that an alpha roll is a behaviour the dog offers up naturally and this should be encouraged as it helps promote the handler to the leadership level that would be required if the dog were living in a pack. Yes dogs are not wolves, but many of their instinctual behaviours are still in line with wolves and we use those natural instincts and manipulate them in order for us to get the desired results within training. All dogs benefit from a leader who has firm boundaries in place,so the dog knows what is required of it. We do that by saying, the odg isn't allowed on the furniture, or has to behave a crtain way when greeting visitors. Its basic psychology, its the same with children, they are happier if they know their boundaries otherwise they becomes frustrated an can act out. However dogs do not think of things the same way as children do, with a child you can explain what behaviour was bad, why it was bad and what you expect of them. You cannot explain things like that with a dog and you need to show them what is required. In my course they say that negative reinforcement and punishment must be used at the handlers discretion as it can cause problems between handler and dog if not used correctly, eg when they know it is needed, however if the dog has recieved positive rewards for training etc then it shouldn't be needed.They are basically saying they do not encourage it but know that sometimes it is neccesary.

But not every dog is going to have the perfect positive experience. Nothing is going to stop some stupid persons dog come running up and attack your dog. This can warrant different responses in different dogs. Eg in a dog who is confident or not very sensitive they may recover from the situation quickly and it not phase them. But if this were to happen over and over again this dog could then associate that dog or even others as being hostile and it will react first in order to defend itself. In a sensitive dog this may only need to happen once or twice to invoke the same response. We cannot protect our dogs from everything, but we can try to make sure they have as many positive experiences as possible in order to ensure the positive always outweighs the negative. As far as i'm aware this is the sort of training Hans has been advocating, Hans please correct me if i'm wrong. He doesn't agree with a forced alpha roll, an alpha roll isn't meant to be forced. This here-in seems to be the where the confusion has been.
Most of you are assuming that because someone does not adhere to 100% positive training they are obviously using negative which in your mind is physically damagaing to the dog and forcing it to do what you want. The opposite of a reward is no reward. Negative reinforcement is used to prevent a dog from doing something it shouldn't for example something that could endanger its life or the owner doesn't want it to do. A simple 'no' is negative reinforcement as the dog knows that when you say this it is doing something undesirable. Usually you may raise your voice when doing so and you are asserting your leadership so the dog knows you are the one in charge and it must do as it's told. Using positive re-inforcement you can also achieve the same result by making an alternative behaviour more desirable, but you need the negative(the 'no') there in order to let the dog know what it is doing is undesirable in order to show it what you want instead. This is simply balance, you need the negative there in order to produce the positive and alternative behavior after. Without the negative there you are not showing your displeasure and the dog still wont understand thats undesirable behaviour. Again any training technique can be abused. Whats to stop someone actively encouraging their dog to attack for eg a specific person? they will encourage an aggressive response out of that dog and the give it positive reinforcement for when it shows that desired behaviour in the situation they want them to. Is that taking positive reinforcement too far? yes! it can be abused, and its the people using the techniques that are to blame, not the techniques themselves.
In my course, which is approved as qualification towards earning APBC recognition btw, they say balance is the key and it's up to the handler to decide when certain techniques are needed, and its mostly primarily dependant on each individual dog and their background and their tolerance levels to different stimulus. Which is why behaviour consultants do not have just one way of doing things, they tailor their techniques to the individual need of the dog. I do not know of any GOOD trainer who will not try the 100% positive reinforcement technique first, and if they deem that perhaps that will not work for that particular dog as its arousal levels extend past the level of the positive stimulus, they will try something else or up the stimulus needed to get the dog out of its state of high arousal.This is where training aids come in. It will always however be done with respect and without harming the dog because that will provoke a nagative stimulus to the dog and create a negative response.

Now this is up to date MODERN stuff I am learning and as far as I can see Hans also follows this line of thinking and has also stated that anyone harming a dog is abusing the dog and their position. He loves dogs as much as everyone else here and wants to see them treated fairly and well and trained to be respectable members of our society. Nobody likes to see dogs tarnished with a bad rep because some stupid people take their responsibilities towards the dogs too lightly or abuse that responsibility. My own dog is overcoming her negative associations with other dogs because another few dogs owners took their reponsibilities towards training their dogs too lightly. Their dogs attacked mine and as she is so sensitive she is taking a long time to overcome the negative associations she has with other dogs. It is only through positive reinforcement we can achieve this. Where I used to live we had numerous people with aggressive dogs, or owners who just didn't take control or have respect for other dog owners and so despite the numerous positive experiences she did have, the negative always outweighed the positive. Now we have moved it seems the entire attitude round here to dog owning is completely different and she has had many positive experiences since and so she is slowly overcoming her issues. After so long it is great to finally see some improvement. So circumstances can have a huge impact on the behaviour of a dog and its surrounding environment. This should never be forgotten when it comes to training of any sort.
Of course the other thing to be considered is the breeding of the dog. Working line dogs work at a much higher energy and arousal state than say pet dogs do, some breeds have a higher natural aggression level than other dogs do. Some dogs are more prone to becoming obsessive than other dogs. It is up to us as responsible handlers to ensure we do not allow these traits to express themselves or at least learn to direct them towards something constructive. It's responsible dog ownership and training. Sometimes people can make mistakes which is why many dog breed groups will state whether a dog is suitable as a first time dog, they know those new owners are likely to make mistakes in their training and they are basically saying, if you dont have experience before you get one of these dogs, you are likely to end up with a difficult dog because you will make numerous mistakes in the training. Even the best of us can unwittingly cause a negative behaviour in a dog despite our efforts to do everything correctly. We are just human after all and are not infallible.

I think some of the snarky remarks and picking up on things like Han's spelling mistakes has just been a way of diverting attention away from the questions he has put to you. He has made some very valid points. Calling him a neanderthal for instance is name calling and on most other forums you could be banned for a personal attack in such a way. Some people have indeed made some good responses to him, but others have been down right rude. It's no wonder I moved away from here because people are so judgemental and jump to conclusions. This should be a place for education and open mined debate, not a place for trying to drag people down because they do not follow the same beliefs as you.

edited to add: My partner is blind, he has a GSD guide dog, naturally GSD's like to challenge your position as leader. She is thoroughly trained to do her job else she would not have been released in order to be working. What if she doesn't do as she is told? what should my partner do? He has to correct the dog else she could inadvertently get him killed by not crossing the road correctly or avoiding situations that could cause him harm. It is up to him to continue with making sure his girls working behaviours are consistent so regularly he makes her do the tasks she has been taught and rewards her when she gets it right. This sort of working dog is far beyond what many of us do with our pet dogs and is a completely different kettle of fish. I think Hans is aware of this considering his many years of experience in his field which is why he is debating. Not all dogs are cut out to be pet/sport/show dogs and they need a slightly different approach on occasion in order to get the best results.

Ah - light bulb moment. We are moving into Adam Palmer territory. Training aids with batteries, at a guess. How is Dennis?


photos didn`t insert- here are the nightmare girlies

Oh god here we go with the alpha roll nonsense crap sorry but peeps who believe this crap dont need to own dog's. right ive got a bullmastif cross rotty, OMG he was a knightmare with growling and mouthing etc etc, positive training clicker training advised by the good member's here, soon sorted out the problem. we basically cried ow when he did it we turned our back and got some tuggy toy's rewarded him for channeling his energy into that and wala sorted. he never mouth's anyone now he doesnt jump at peeps in fact by the advise of peeps like SLB, ClaireandDaisy, azz, Tupacs2legs, merlins mum etc and many more people (sorry if not named you to many good peeps to remember lol) i have a well behaved pleasant dog trained by clicker training and by rewarding by treats.

You know, not one trainer who advocates alpha rolling dogs has been able to answer my question of what you're supposed to do if you are physically unable to roll your dog.

And yes, an alpha roll is where you force the dog onto its back and hold it there until it "submits", it's not where you reward the dog for a naturally offered behaviour.

You are right.
Alpha roll is never , or I should say usually not physically forced. It is inherited in the dogs through thousands of generation through selective breeding. When the dominant dog( or wolf), during certain occasions interacts with the younger , on hierarchy ladder lower, member of the pack he displays dominant posture. There are several levels of these postures. Starts with facing directly and tall and tail up and so on until bearing of the teeth and climbing onto the lesser member to potentially bite and attack. Less mature the lower member is sooner he/she will roll over and displays other submissive signs. More mature the sub-dominant member of the pack is, later is he going to roll over. This may and usually will escalate into a fight where eventually the originally dominant member of the pack will loose to new and up and coming dominant dog or wolf. If the immature and thus usually less physically strong pup would not roll over then he would get killed. Thus pup will roll over as a sub-dominant sign to the more dominant pack member.
All this is a normal cycle of life of the pack.
Now there are trainers who deny this as a useful knowledge of dog training. However you can not deny 1000 of generations of selective breeding a development of the structure of relationship in the pack of dogs, wolves and in the groups of other animals too. Like Hoses. )). Well, as you know, I mean horses.
The problem arrives when trainer bypasses necessary steps which dominant dog displays and goes directly to the "bite" = garbing the pup. Such pup does not understands and according to his inhered knowledge believes that he is being killed. Thus improper use of the roll in training could be damaging.
Prager Hans

Prager Hans, you seem to have a very different view of what an alpha roll is to the majority of dog trainers who advocate using it. If I'm correct you're saying people shouldn't grab their dog, force it onto its back and hold it there while it struggles desperately to get away. Yet the majority of people who advocate using alpha rolls want you to do exactly that, roll the dog by force and prove to it that you're boss by doing so. I don't think anyone is disputing that sometimes one dog will roll in response to another dog, it's the human forcibly rolling the dog we're saying is wrong.

If the dog / pup submits to you by rolling over he is telling you :"You are the pack leader" > Thus any further negative display towards the submission displaying dog is not proper or fair according to the inherited pack ethics. Thus after such submissive it is proper for the trainer to depart or be positive.

To your question about what to do if you are not physically able to roll the dog i would say this. DO NOT!
Because if you loose you will have a dog who will be dominate over you. ( That is as far as he is concerned).
I believe that is why many trainers advice against it and I personally am also not big proponent of this type of socialization.
There are other ways to show the dog that you are above the pup/dog on hierarchy ladder. These ways must involve positive just as much as negative reinforcement. These need to be both applied properly and fairly and humanly.
It is just as bad to improperly apply positive as it is to apply negative enforcement and improperly applied positive reinforcement may may even more then improperly applied negative lead to very asocial and aggressive dog.
Prager Hans

I have explained above that there is certain progression of dominance of one member over the other. To violate this progression is against the ethics of the pack and thus will be misunderstood by the pup. I am personally against rolling the dog physically if it violates these ethics and/or if the trainer is not physically capable to do it with older dog,...which is just about 99.9% of people, since to hold down even small mature dog if he fights you with all his might may not be possible and may most likely to lead to injury of the dog or the trainer.
Thus alpha roll is a very difficult approach of socialization. to do. If applied properly then it is valid but I would not recommend it to 99.9% of people and that 0.01% of people who can actually do it properly as far as ethics of the pack go does not need me to tell them how and when to do it.
Thus to general public I would recommend to do it only in non physical way as I have described it in posts above and apply positive if pup displays submission.
If the pup is biting you then i would apply different approach then puppy roll because young pup is usually not doing it in order to dominate the trainer but as a display of a prey drive. This display must not be punished at all but should be properly developed and used in further training of obedience, detection, s&r and so on. Prey drive is very valuable tool for a dog trainer to have.
Prager hans