Most pet dog owners training their dogs don't need or want to understand the technicalities Clob. With this in mind good trainers and instructors need to be able to get across in plain english what the client needs to know in order to get the job done. That is to train the dog effectively.

How do you train your dogs? Please feel free to be as specific as required.

Agree with this completely.
I have noticed, too, that using positive methods very quickly teaches my dog a command/desired behaviour and I find him responding much faster later on.

I'm glad this has been split,but, first I think we need some guidlines from a mod or admin, namely, whats the situation on posting links. topics such as this will probably have lots of them, thanks.

After I posted the above I found the rules -

Links to any sites that contain any of the following are not permitted: any pet-related forums, chats, message boards, dog articles, breeder directories, advertisements. In addition any sites requiring logging in to see content of the site are also not permitted.

Generally it's ok to post a link so long as it is relevant to the topic, however there are some links we don't allow, such as links to other dog forums. There are also some links that are in a censor which automatically get edited out by the system.

eRaz
Most pet dog owners training their dogs don't need or want to understand the technicalities Clob.

Clob
I can only write in bits as I don’t have time for more, so the above part.

Personally I cannot speak on behalf of what must be around the 10 million or so ‘pet dog’ owners, they have not contacted me and asked me to be spokesman and I don’t expect them to.

What I can say is this, large elements of the ‘commercial dog training sector’ are deliberately bombarding pet owners with technical operant terms, they use the terms as subliminal commercial promotional material without pet owners being aware of that fact.

I agree that the vast majority of pet dog owners probably don’t want to know these terms, BUT, as they are being exposed to these words and terms they have every right to fully understand the meanings, including how these words and terms might be used to manipulate them for commercial purposes, affect the results of training and consequently the welfare of their dogs.

eRaz
Positive = positive, reward, praise. Ie reinforcement with positive feedback/reward when the dog carries out the desired action (over the unwanted one in some circumstances).

Clob
No that’s incorrect and if anyone, especially pet dog owners, were exposed to incorrect theory principle, especially if they were in a training class/one to one, they would be mislead if what you stated above was all they were told.

If they were mislead then the consequences could only mean they applied incorrect principles/methods in trying to train their dog. There are two positives in operant theory and they should be fully explained to pet owners who are exposed to them, alternatively they should not be used, they are, to repeat,
Positive Punisher
Positive Reinforcer

Positive punishers are one of the foundations of the learning process in all animals capable of learning something, without them no animal, capable of learning something, would survive as an individual or as a species, the same applies to positive reinforcers.

eRaz
Negative = punishment, reprimand. A dog is punished for doing something undesired

Clob
I am sorry but the way I read that it is an emotive expression and extremely misleading in the way its stated “A dog is punished” sounds like some kind of pointless retribution or some kind of dog abuse action on behalf of the owner. There are two negatives in operant theory:
Negative Punishment
Negative reinforcer
Whilst people have been reading this they will,almost bar non, have used negative reinforcers for a behaviour.

Negative punishers are another one of the foundations of the learning process in all animals capable of learning something, without them no animal, capable of learning something, would survive as an individual or as a species. Negative reinforcers the same.

eRaz
How do you train your dogs? Please feel free to be as specific as required.

Clob
I use what you and others call 'positive or reward training', but, I would never call it that as there is nothing new about it all, which is what people imply.

I am also a UK specilialist in remote, static, electro pulse collars which I have used since the technology developed to make some of them usable as one of the many all round training aids that some of them are today.

You don't need to speak to all dog owners to ascertain what is the most common opinion - just take a look at the many forums like Dogweb where you will find pet dog owners, and their views.

Ah - that explains a lot.

No matter how you dress it up or try to justify it, or pick at how others train, most dog owners will see electric shock collars as a cruel method of training. Why do they think that? Because if they look around they see it just isn't nescessery - people are training their dogs to a very high level using positive reinforement techniques.

eRaz
No matter how you dress it up or try to justify it, or pick at how others train, most dog owners will see electric shock collars as a cruel method of training.

Clob
Electric shock collars were extremely harsh and dangerous, as well as very rare, which is why they were used only as a specific use, life or death attempt, not as a training aid general or any training anthing else. However, as they are not only obsolete they have been illegal for many years, not quite sure what the relevance is, can you explain?

eRaz
Why do they think that?

Clob
Well if someone has lied to pet owners saying or implying that electric shock collars are or were used in training dogs then pet owners have been deliberately mislead and lied to. Electric shock collars have been obsolete for donkeys years as well as illegal.

For the record they became illegal because they did not pass the European safety tests and did not get the CE safety standard mark.

eRaz
Because if they look around they see it just isn't necessery

Clob
I am sorry but not only are your wrong, you are making non factual statements, I find that extreme and it gives no credibilty to those who make up false statements they cannot support.

Going back to the days of the electric shock collars everything possible had already been tried. The dogs had reached a point of PTS or try an electric shock collar, however, because they were so very rare in the UK, not common in Europe and virtualy unknown in the USA, very few dogs got that last opportunity so they were PTS.

The exceptions were some extreme protection dogs and some hunting dogs in Europe, they were used with those occasionaly for a specific use only.

eRaz
- people are training their dogs to a very high level using positive reinforcement techniques.

Clob
You are in conflict with everything which has been pointed out about positive reinforcements, so far you have given incorrect descriptions and failed to give anything close to a clear description of what 'positive & negative, reward & punishment' are, this has been pointed out to you twice and again you are avoiding the subject, why?

Because of that I will fill in. You are using punishment based techniques, for reasons unknown to me you are hiding that fact which in turn suggests, repeatedly, that you are making statements beyond your knowledge or being misleading, why?

Finaly, can you please help keeping this post on a factual & sensible level and not just full of non factual nonsense, probably designed to throw the post off topic in order to supress information and time wast.

It's a point to note that within this past two weeks a Law Lord had described KC as extreme because of making such non factual statements, claims and innuendos.

What's the difference between electric shock collars and electro pulse collars? How do electro pulse collars work?

I don't state anywhere I know everything there is to know about dogs - and am always willing to listen to other peoples views and opinions. I also don't have a need to promote any one thing in particular - apart from responsible dog ownership.

Do you sell these collars by any chance?