Spot Did I give the impression that they should be left to get on with it and did you overlook my second post when I said..

I think the whole issue of ex breeding dogs needs looking into

You say 'these places are doing nothing illegal', I am not convinced many of these places aren't already doing things which are illegal like exceeding the number of dogs they are licenced to keep and breed from and failing to keep dogs in accordance with law when it comes to their living conditions and over all care.
And what about the illegal Puppy Farms, are you saying there aren't any of those or just that none of the brood bitches from these places are taken to rescues.

When it comes to buying a puppy from a puppy farm the Dogs Trust say..
The most effective thing is pretty simple – don’t buy a puppy from a puppy farm. Hit them where it hurts – in their pockets!

and the RSPCA say ..
Concerned about the welfare of a puppy?
Never buy a puppy just because you feel sorry for it. If you are concerned about the health or welfare of a puppy, please contact the RSPCA 24-hour cruelty and advice line: 0300 1234 999. Calls are treated in the strictest confidence.
..so 'Don't buy the puppies' is the message, they don't say 'please rescue a puppy or it will die' and that will no doubt be the fate of some puppies ,the message here is clear, resist the temptation to take these puppies for the greater good. There is no mention of the ex breeding bitches and what can be done to help them .
While many people are aware of puppy farms and the sickly puppies they produce and we have seen programs about them recently all of which help to heighten the awareness of the puppy buying public, the plight of the brood bitches rarely if ever seems to get a mention.


KC says ''But if we didn't take the ex breeder she would be killed and a young dog would still take her place'.

I have no doubt many ex brood bitches don't make it to rescues in the first place and many of the sites giving information about puppy farms confirm this,here is just one example...
...there are many more examples stating the bitches are killed. So why do the Puppy Farmers allow a small number of brood bitches to go to rescues why not just kill them all?

As I said in my second post, the one you chose to ignore I think the whole issue of ex breeding dogs needs looking into and I don't think those of us who mention the plight of the brood bitches should be glibly dismissed and made to look the bad guys for daring to bring the subject up.

I am not for one moment saying rescuing any dog is not a good thing to do but there is a bigger picture here and I don't think we should be lulled into a sense of complacency by the thought that all ex breeding bitches make it to freedom when in all probability only a tiny minority do.

I have a friend who rescued an ex-breeding bitch. She is a delightful little dog now and everyone she meets is regaled with the story of the dreadful conditions these dogs were kept in, plus a lecture about getting a dog from a rescue or a reputable source. If my friend hadn`t rescued the dog it would be dead - and hundreds of people would not have been told about the her origins.

Excellent post

Your last paragraph is exactly how I feel. It's easy to be negative and say that we need to look at the bigger picture. KC's doing her bit (as well as taking criticism for her hard work ). Yes there will be some ex-breeders that are being killed when they are of no use but, as far as I can see, if a dozen bitches a year are saved, then even that's a positive move forward. It's up to the rest of this so called "animal loving nation" to help get laws changed so that these PF's are prosecuted and closed down

I said I wasn't commenting again, but as ever Mini has posted exactly what I wanted to say.

http://www.puppywatch.org.uk/

right so puppywatch are lying when they say the welsh assembly subsidised these farms?

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hopeuk/5yearson.htm

oh and another –

http://puppyalert.googlepages.com/puppyfarming

maybe this will help you understand – bombard the authorities with info regarding bad breeding and what happens – the authorities give them a breeding license!

this is an update – please read this bit

Within a very short period of time of being exposed by the BBC this puppy farm was issued with a dog breeders licence to allow them to trade legally. How can an unlicensed puppy farm looking as it does in this photo (by courtesy of the BBC) become a licensed dog breeding establishment (practically overnight) without any modifications undertaken to improve the welfare standards or conditions of premises? This is an agriculture building previously used for sheep, not a purpose built kennel suitable for accommodating domesticated dogs for long periods of time - a lifetime in fact.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carmarthenshire Carmarthenshire County Council licensed this dog breeding establishmnent.

There is no light, the dogs have no way to see out of their cell. As many as ten dogs live in this one small space, a hell hole. Yet it did not stop Carmarthenshire County Council issuing the owners a licence for dog breeding.
Last year it passed its licensing inspection, yet they are in serious breach of their licensing conditions.
Why are these inspections not followed up?
The Animal Welfare Act 2006, where has it been applied at these premises?
Someone cannot be acting in the best interests of the dogs
64 dogs plus on the premises and no staff.
I hope, but doubt, this will help you see what these rescues are up against and maybe now start helping instead of yet another slating.

See what I mean - the authorities dont want to know - yes I know its hard to believe but as I think CC said this is not an ideal world we live in.

wow i just sat and read the puppy alert pages = how sad !!!!!

personally, i dont know how anybody goes into these places and takes some dogs but leaves others behind it would break my heart and |i think i would want to punch the ba*****s in the face who think that its ok to treat animals this way..... i dont mean that in a bad way I mean i dont know how you can brave it !!

its so good that some get out it really is.

My opinion is , well done to anyone who is helping any of the unfortunate dogs who have had such a miserable life .
If they were not taken in by rescues puppy farms would still happen and the poor rejects would probably be drowned or hit over the head with a shovel .
These dogs have had a terrible time and deserve to have some happiness in what's left of their life .
Yes , they will be replaced by a younger model but that would happen anyway .
I find it very sad that someone who is doing their best to help these dogs should be attacked in the way that Kcjack has been . I would have thought on a dog forum people would have been congratulating her .
In an ideal world puppy farms and unwanted dogs wouldn't exist but this is the real world and sad to say they do

Of course they are doing things illegally like having too many dogs – but while the authorities give warning when they are to visit – lets face it it only takes a couple of hours let alone days to move these dogs off the property and sweep up a bit.

Did I ever say there were no illegal PF – if so show me where! Do rescues have access to these, or again when reported the powers that be and they eventually go out to inspect – low and behold no dogs (where to you think most of these went?

Oh right so now the RSPCA saying nothing about brood bitches means don’t rescue them? What the RSPCA is trying to do is educate the public to stop the demand – that’s the way to stop puppy farming

So what do you suggest – please if you think you can help tell us what you would do? Just stop the rescues taking these dogs? Do you honestly think this will stop the PF?

Yep many do not make it to rescue – now is that KC’s fault. As I’ve said the rescues are not silent – they have lobby groups but if they go in all guns blazing they will lose the chance to even save a few – is that what people who are so against these rescues really want? The rescues do make a difference – many PF do now keep these dogs in better conditions because of rescues trying to educate.

I don’t think anyone has glibly dismissed these breeding bitches – surely if KC or any rescue taking them did that – they wouldn’t be taking them in the first place or driving 8 hours to get them out. What seems to be the problem is that its now the rescues fault for taking them in and if anything has been dismissed it’s the damn good and hard work that these rescues do to help them!

Just who is being complacent about it – trust me the rescues would love nothing better if there were no breeding bitches (and studs btw) to take in. There is nothing complacent about taking these dogs in and rehabilitating them for a wonderful life and nothing complacent about trying to educate both the public regarding taking these dogs or the farmers to have them in better conditions until they can be shut down.

I am not attacking KCJack...I am merely expressing concern at the practice of rescues taking on these dogs and I feel the bigger picture ahs to be looked at.
Anyhow I commented again...not giong to do it anymore, just wanted to make it clear that I have better things to do than attack KCJack.

I think we all have the dogs best interests at heart. No one has said it isn't good to rescue the dogs...just that other things need to be done and looked at as well.

ive just read through this thread and to be honest i dont often agree with kcjack-but this time i do- 100% i think its great what her and other rescues are doing- at the end of the day these dogs are going to be disposed of in some way- so what is so wrong with these rescues giving these dogs a life and a future. I can sort of see why some people think that its just making it easier for the puppy farmers...yes its saving them the effort of putting them in a bag and throwing them in a river or it saves them loading their shotgun and shooting them in the face...because lets all be realistic- that is the future most of them face without people like kc doing all they can. these breeders will be replaced regardless of who takes them and what happens to them. could all you people live with yourselves if you saw all these needy dogs, took some of them and then publicly lobbied for the end to the puppy farms- only for the puppy farmer to realise and refuse you anymore dogs. in effect you would have blood on your hands and, i for one could not live with that.