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Sarah27
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16-09-2008, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
I've read a few studies on nutritional requirements for canine athletes. A diet that was found to be good for a small, high metabolism, high energy, agility dog (so similar to my dog) breaks down as follows:

35.6% protein
23.3% fat
4% fibre
7.2% ash
29.5% carbohydrate

In this diet, 29.2% of the calories are coming from protein, 46.6% from fat and 24.2 % from carbohydrates.
I'm a bit curious about where these figures came from? Was it from a pet food manufacturer or a company involved in pet food distribution of some kind? If so I wouldn't trust it really.

I was thinking about this thread this morning and came to the conclusion that the raw diet is basically mimicking what a wild dog/wolf would eat in the wild. Wolves and wild dogs will run/trot many many miles in a day to find food and water etc. They don't worry about percentages of stuff, they just eat whole animals.

I just get the feeling you're overcomplicating the issue and getting yourself stressed out.

My dog doesn't get carbs (apart from those present in meat) but I can't say I've ever worked out the exact ratios. He's healthy, fit, lean and very very fast (it's the whippet in him), can run for miles (when we're on the bikes). That's good enough for me

BTW Now you've got Evie on board you'll get excellent advice. She's my Raw Mentor
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scarter
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16-09-2008, 02:38 PM
The figures are based upon studies into the diet and it's effect on performance in a range of different types of performance dogs. That particular diet was a fictitious example used in the book for illustration purposes. The findings of the studies presented in this particular book suggest that high energy agility dogs will typically do best on:

35 - 45% of their calories from fat
30 - 35% from protein
10 - 15% from carbohydrates

Note that this is NOT the same as saying they need 35 - 45% fat in their diets!

It's really not complicated when you look at it from a nutrition point of view. When I started this thread I don't think I quite realised that to many people feeding raw is about buying into a methodology. I think some people are confused and think that when I say I want to feed raw I want to buy into a methodology such as BARF or the Prey Model. No!

Once you get your head around the basics considering diet from a nutritionalists point of view is far less complicated than trying to figure out what wild dogs might or might not have done/eaten and then factor in the effect that generations of selective breeding (which would certainly included selection of dogs that thrived on the food that humans gave them). Or at least, it's less complicated to me. But I guess our minds all process things differently.

Our pup did great on burns mini-bites. If I could reproduce the health and performance we got on burns in a raw diet or home prepared cooked diet (whichever she does best on) I'd be very happy. She's now outgrown mini bites. Burns did recommend that we try her on Burns Active.

My partner has just come home with a big 18 kg bag of Burns Active. The break down is:

24% protein
20% fat
40% carbs

Which equates to :

21.31% of energy from protein
43.14% of energy from fat
35.5% energy from carbs

That's very different from a BARF or Prey Model diet, and it's also very different from what the dog nutritionists say is best for a high energy dog like mine. But Burns high carb, low fat, low protein food DOES produce very good results with my pup. And she *SEEMS* to be suffering without the carbs. A whippet and greyhound trainer from our club (the one with the most succesful dogs I shoud add) did tell me the other day that he used to feed raw, but since switching to Burns Active he's never looked back.

I'm coming around to the idea of testing her on Burns Active. If she thrives on it and her speed/endurance returns (which we're pretty confident it will based on passed experiences) then we can look at recreating this composition using raw meat and see if she does better for having the raw food in her diet. If we can recreate the nutritional balance of a commercial food that she thrives on and match the performance and health, then we have the opportunity to tweak and fine tune the diet by slightly adjusting the fat/carb/protein levels.

But I'm not looking to buy into any raw feeding methodology. Just the raw meat part It may well be that my pup just doesn't thrive on raw. But I want to investigate fully and do the best for her that we can.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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16-09-2008, 03:53 PM
I have and did analyze everything I fed my dog
I have put links to the sites up before - will find them when I can
But basically I compared the RDA's for a dog given from pet food companies, the actual stated neutritional values on some of the premium foods I was feeding him and then the actual values of a average weeks worth of raw food
On everything listed Bens diet exceeded what was in the kibble (I converted it all to 100Kcalories to standerdise)

You say you dont want a methodology of feeding you just want to feed raw
unfort you have to understand why things are being fed and why things are being left out

I feed what I feed not because it is what a dog would eat in the wild - there is far more to it than that

yes 1st it is what a dog evolved to eat
The genetic records show that dogs separated from wolves 100,000 years ago, from the fossil evidence it looks like these dogs were hanging around humans although not actually domesticated but may have been around for the hunt and scavinging our waste
Which at the time we were hunter gatherers so we would have been having mainly meat, fruit and veg that we could gather

approx 15,000 years ago we changed to farmers and dogs begain changing lots too
But up to that point dogs would have been eating mainly meat - as scavingers they may have eaten some plant matter and animal poo, possibly berries - but dosent mean they would have digested it

From that point dogs were domesticated - but they had to do a job
It is unlikely that we would have been selecting and cooking foods for our dogs - they would have got scraps and whatever they could kill

So for the vast majority of dogs evolution they wouldnt have got much carbs

Again it is only pet food companies making us believe dogs are omnivores
Dogs have the teeth, the acidic stomach, the short digestive tract and the ability to synthesise vit C of carnivores - they are carnivores

Unfortunatly because they are scavingers they can exisit on other foods

I have not found any unbiased neutritional studies on dogs - all ones funded by pet food manufactureres have to be discounted

I feed what I feed because it has everything my dog needs
- all the trace vitamins and minerals
Based on as much recearch as I can find, based on other peoples experiences, and based on what I have found with my dog

I have heard some farmers who raw feed their collies say v occasionaly there is a dog who needs some carbs
what they do is soak a spoonful of oats in milk and give with the dogs morning feed

But it is too soon to say if your dog needs that yet

Really be careful of chopping and changing her food too much else you cannot judge anything

From my personal experience I would say there can be a little while of adjusting to the food - I felt a bit lousy for a couple of days but then when your body gets used to burning the fat efficiently then my enery soared



Also I wonder about feeding times?? You are used to feeding a carb heavy meal in the morning, this sits around digesting slowly so by the time for walk the energy is finaly being released
Raw is digested far quicker- I think of it like the comparison between burning wet logs on a fire compared to dry grass
The wet logs take a whhile to light and burn slower
Possibly a wee feed a hour or so before a walk/ training then she might have the extra energy for speed??

Hope it all works out for you!!
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scarter
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16-09-2008, 05:30 PM
For anyone interested, here's some more info on dietry requirements of working dogs that differs a little from the book I've been reading.

The source is 'Small animal clinical nutrition'(4th edition) written by Hand, Thatcher, Remillard and Roudebush.

I'm told that there are very similar findings in the British small animal veterinary association ‘Manual of Companion Animal Nutrition and Feeding’ edited by Noel Kelly & Josephine Wills. (In particular- chapter 6- nutrition of racing and working dogs).

This book splits activity levels according to the exercise type:

Sprint athletes: racing greyhounds, coursing, weight pulling
Intermediate athletes (low/moderate duration and frequency) and Intermediate athletes (high duration and frequency): hunting, field trials, livestock management, agility
Endurance athletes: sled pulling

Levels recommended for each type of activity are:

Sprint athletes: Carbohydrate- 55-65% and protein 22-28%

Intermediate athletes (low/moderate duration and frequency): Carbohydrate- 30-55% and protein 22-32%

Intermediate athletes (high duration and frequency): Carbohydrate- 30-35% and protein 22-30%

Endurance athletes: Carbohydrate 10-15% and protein 28-34%

I haven't got hold of the books myself yet, so don't know what they say about fat percentages but you can get a rough idea simply by doing the sums.

But this fits with my experience in feeding my own dog. I know we didn't stick it out long enough to draw definate conclusions but our gut feeling was that the composition of the raw diet was very wrong. That's probably not because raw food isn't good for her - but raw meat without additional carbs just doesn't give her such a good supply of energy. Don't get me wrong - on raw she's still one of the fittest & fastest dogs in the park. But there's a definate deterioration from how she was on kibble. She needs carbs. We're confident enough of that to switch back to Burns for the time being. If she doesn't improve quickly we know that her fitness downturn was coincidence and nothing to do with the raw meat.

It's interesting that the book that I've been reading that recommends 10 - 15% carbs talks mostly about studies relating to sled dogs. It does give recommendations for agility type activities, but not sprinters. So I guess the author's main expertise was with sled dogs. But all studies of working/athlete dogs that I've found say that at least some carbs are vital for good performance. However, studies that don't take performance into account tend to conclude that carbs aren't needed. Something to consider when choosing sources of info on diet?

According to this, Burns adult maintenance would be the best food in their range for sprinters. Burns Active would be best suited to agility dogs, hunters or dogs that spend hours running in the park.

Our Beanie is a bit of both! Her speed was superb on mini-bites (perfect composition for sprinters), but she needed to eat way to much of the food to sustain her body weight - due to so much time spent running about in the park. Which is why Burns recommended that we switch to Active.

I've mailed them to ask if they'd recommend feeding her Active during the week, and switching to maintenance on and perhaps the day before race day.

I think I'm definately going to find the perfect composition of food using kibble first, and when we've got Beanie in tip top condition and fitness I'll see about recreating that diet in home cooked or raw food.

I'd feel much happier having solid benchmarks to guage how well her home made diet suits her.

These studies would suggest that the typical raw diets (BARF, Prey Model) might be best suited to endurance dogs. But certainly it would indicate that one size doesn't fit all - you really do need to tweak the ratio of fats, protein and carbs to suit you dog if you want to get the best out of them.

That's actually an interesting point to consider when modeling a diet on wolves or wild dogs. A wolf's energy requirements, work and lifestyle would have been different from many of todays dogs. The wolves 'job' was to hunt for food. Todays dogs have been bred to do everything from short 150 yard sprints a couple of times a week to running pulling a heavy sled for umpteen hours a day and several days in a row. There might be some dogs that thrive on the same diet as a wolf, but it stands to reason that others will need different energy sources to be at their best. Some breeds have actually been carefully bred to utilise specific energy systems (aerobic / anaerobic).

I'm still interested in hearing from anyone that's added carbs to a raw diet or tweaked the fat/protein levels and seen changes in their dog's performance. Kibble feeders can only tell us that this food suited their dogs better than that food. It's the people that are putting their dogs diets together themselves that have the opportunity to really experiment with the composition of the diet and learn what the best diet is for their dog.
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scarter
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16-09-2008, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by Ben
But basically I compared the RDA's for a dog given from pet food companies, the actual stated neutritional values on some of the premium foods I was feeding him and then the actual values of a average weeks worth of raw food
On everything listed Bens diet exceeded what was in the kibble (I converted it all to 100Kcalories to standerdise)
So what source of carbohydrates did you feed him (e.g rice, potatoe, oats)? And what was the souce of carbohydrate in the kibbles that you were comparing with?

Out of interest, what brands of kibble have you tried?
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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16-09-2008, 08:11 PM
I am not feeding carbs (appart from those found in meat)
RDA's tell you vits and mineral composition not where it comes from
Foods I have used

He came with pedigree puppy tins - but he was v smelly
Then we moved on to JWB
he really didnt like eating that so mixed with Wagg (saw no change - just that he was eating it)
asda hero premium - again no real change in him

Top dressed JWB kibble with salmon and noticed a big difference in coat and energy
added the working dog omega dry food (cant rem what it was) coat stayed good

Moved to raw no carbs - coat better again, tiny poos, more energy and focus
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Sarah27
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17-09-2008, 10:35 AM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
But I'm not looking to buy into any raw feeding methodology. Just the raw meat part It may well be that my pup just doesn't thrive on raw. But I want to investigate fully and do the best for her that we can.
I'm sure you want to do the best for your pup But for me, millions of years of evolution can't be wrong. If a wolf thrives on raw then your pup will thrive on it too I don't see what we do as a 'methodology' as such (we don't pay any money to any companies who tell us what to do). It's just a natural diet.

Selective breeding has only been around for a tiny fraction of time - a dog's digestive sytem hasn't evolved, that would take a lot longer period of time.

I think what you're wanting to do is feed your dog a diet which enables her to sprint fast? What does your dog do? Is she racing in competitions?

I don't really see how giving her carbs is going to help because dogs can't process carbs the way humans do. It just goes straight through. The reason pet food companies use such high proportions of rice etc. is because it's cheap filler. It won't give her any more energy. Just larger poops

TBH I don't really understand a lot of the figures and stuff, but if you're happy and your pup is happy and fit, then that's all that matters x
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Hali
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17-09-2008, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by Sarah27 View Post
I don't really see how giving her carbs is going to help because dogs can't process carbs the way humans do. It just goes straight through. The reason pet food companies use such high proportions of rice etc. is because it's cheap filler. It won't give her any more energy. Just larger poops
Sarah, if you are saying that dogs cannot get energy from carbs, I don't think this is right (though I'm no expert).

As I understand it there are two type of carbs - soluble carbs and insoluble carbs (fibre). Whilst dogs can't get energy from fibre, several articles I have read have confirmed that they can and do get energy from soluble carbs.
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Evie
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17-09-2008, 11:35 AM
Forgive me raw feeders for what I’m about to say….
As far as kibbles go Burns would be the one I’d recommend as far as kibbles go.
You may want to have a look at their website. John Burns is a vet that recommended home cooked foods to owners, but found that too many owners just didn’t have the time. Thus he came up with his kibble. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen either on his website, or literature they sent me, his recipe for a home cooked diet. As far as kibbles go it’s one of the least offensive. 

However:
I still feel strongly that raw is the way to go. The huge amounts of rice etc that is found in kibbles is not there because the dog needs the carbs etc from it. It is there because it is cheaper and makes for a better form and texture of kibble when cooked at the high temps required in comparision to good quality meats.

The likes of sugar beet is added for its effect on what’s coming out the other end of the dog rather than benefits nutritionally for the dog itself.

Here’s some reading on dog foods; but worth noting that these are American based, the standards in the uk are a little better;
http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/dat...Patrick06.html
http://www.api4animals.org/facts.php?p=359&more=1

There might be some dogs that thrive on the same diet as a wolf, but it stands to reason that others will need different energy sources to be at their best.
No matter what the breed the digestive system is the same. Whilst some might have higher energy requirements, need more or less bone than others, cope better with smaller or larger amounts of organs in meals, the nutritional and energy sources will be the same. A dog does not suddenly develop the ability to digest different forms of food simply because it’s doing a different job than another.

You will be hard pushed to find a raw feeder that finds the needs to add carbs to their dogs diet. Done correctly the diet gives dogs everything they need.

My experiences on feeding my own dogs:

Wills:
She came to me with a broken leg and needed a few ops, so had no muscle and was kept intentionally inactive. She was fed on Pedigree tins, I changed her over to Burns.
When she got here she had a fairly dry coat, some discolouration on her teeth.

On Burns her coat got softer and eyes brighter. She had anal gland problems.

She changed over to prey model raw. Now she has a real glossy coat and bags of energy. (But I can’t compare energy to before due to injuries and rehabilitation she was going through.) Her teeth have no discolouration and bright eyes. No anal gland problems since feeding raw. Firmer, much less poop, roughly once a day. (Kibble produces much more poop since a lot of it isn’t digested.)

Archie:
Came to me on Bakers and wired to the moon. Total space cadet that never EVER stopped running manically around the house. Only time he slowed down was when he was given a bone as a treat. He just didn’t hear commands and was impossible to train. His teeth were discoloured, harsh coat with a greasy kind of layer over it. Very bald under his neck, belly and legs. He had a real “doggy smell” about him. Pooped A LOT. Only ever slightly firm first thing in the morning. Liquid mostly after that.

Now he’s still got bags of energy, but actually lies down and sleeps in the house, no longer running over everything and leaping over everybody. He could still race about and play for Ireland, but it’s a calmer sort of energy and he can actually hear commands now and pay attention to training. His coat is really healthy, and has some fur covering those previously baldy bits, though it’s still thin round there. Teeth sparkling white. Firmer poops about twice a day. A much happier dog than the manic one I brought home.

My thoughts on your dog:
Your dogs system is trying to adjust to A LOT of new protein sources over the last few weeks. Most recommend to introduce each source over a period of weeks and see how the dog copes with each one.

Couple this with the fact that she is also dealing with switching between kibble and raw which both require different rates of digestion, strengths of stomach acid etc probably isn’t helping. Not totally un-doable, but may have an effect on performance?

She has put on a little weight, not necessarily a bad thing, but a bit more weight is bound to slow anyone down alittle. How much slower has she become? And if she is racing purely because she enjoys it; in the grand scheme of things, is it REALLY that important if all else is well with her?

If you do wish to continue with raw feeding I urge you to cut back on all the new proteins (introduce each one over a period of weeks and let her system adjust), ditch the kibble and slowly does it. Rome wasn’t built in a day.

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/

A website that is useful for checking out the nutrition in food:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
Remember to put in the word "raw" if checking out raw foods, since nutrion will vary from their cooked counterparts.
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Evie
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17-09-2008, 11:44 AM
But I'm not looking to buy into any raw feeding methodology. Just the raw meat part
I may have said this already on here, but I've a notion it was on the reply I typed up yesterday that got lost;

Dog cannot live by meat alone.
Meat is a large part of the diet, but there are essentials contained in both bones and organs that the dog also needs. Not to mention the benefits to teeth from crunching on and tearing meat from bones.

If you are not on here seeking to find out more on raw feeding methods, I'm not sure what your purpose is?

You want the best for your dog? In my opinion that is a raw prey model diet. If you want help and info on how to feed that I'm willing to offer you my help; otherwise I'm not sure what the point is.
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