As has been said many times before: "There are worse things than PTS."

They can all handle the stim, thats why the levels adjustable.

Adam

NO THEY CANNOT. Adam this shows how little you actually know dogs and their different personalities.

I had to acclimate my dog to being bumped into. It caused NO PAIN yet it nearly shut her down many times when I first got her. I had to teach her that being run into by me meant something good (in her case, a game of tug).

And that's not even painful (we're not talking running into her full force -- we're talking bumping into her lightly). She COULD NOT HANDLE THAT. At all. Period. I might even have to acclimate her to a collar that vibrates (I have no use for one, but I can imagine it bothering her enough to cause her to shut down).

She could not handle pain and it would NOT train her except to show her that scary things come from me. Or to fear having collars put on. Or to hate walks or training. Why the heck would I want to do that to my dog?

I'm still waiting for your statistics on dogs coming into rescue that are killed for being human aggressive/dog aggressive.

no for cool calm calculated abuse imo

Thats way more stimulus than an e collar, just you tube e collar working level.
Re rescues, just ask anyone who works there, dogs that bite don't come out!

Adam

No you dont use e-collars just for "last chance" dogs. You use them on every dog you get your hands on! Why? because you are not capable of training a dog properly,thats why. You are a sad sick person and I would not let you within 50ft of any dog,ever.

I work with rescue dogs. I still want to see your statistics as I have personally worked with many fearful dogs who have been brought into rescue and rehomed.

And lightly bumping into a dog is NOT THE SAME THING as a sudden shock. It is not painful at all.

I'm really starting to think you're either brainwashed or just plain stupid. I can't quite decide which. If you tried to come at my dog with a SHOCK collar I would pin your butt down, put it around you, and zap the crap out of you with it. And that would just be for fun.

For real though Adam, maybe you should have someone put the collar on you and try to train you to do something using it. They're not allowed to communicate to you using words you understand. Just gibberish and an e-collar. See how quickly you learn something and how stressful it is. Please video tape this for us. I would LOVE to see it.

For the record, this IS something people do with clicker training to show people how shaping is done and how it works, to get them better with timing. They decide beforehand on a behavior (e.g. turning on a light) and then click for each right move in the direction of what they want.

So if the person takes a step toward the light, they get a click. If they step in a different direction they get nothing. It's great fun for both "trainer" and "trainee" and it shows how it works pretty well.

So let's do this with YOU and an e-collar. If I lived there, I'd volunteer to be the one pressing the remote but I'm sure any of the fine folks on dogsey who live on your side of the pond would be glad to do it.

I've done something similar on a clicker training course too. We were paired up, with one of us blindfolded & the other "guiding" the blindfolded person around obstacles, using nothing other than verbal praise (i.e. not allowed to say left a bit or right a bit etc, only to say "yes, well done" or similar.) The second time the person guiding wasn't allowed to say anything when the blindfolded person went in the right direction, but only to say "bad girl, naughty" etc in a cross voice if you went in the wrong direction.

I can tell you in all honesty that the emotional feeling with the praise was completely different from the emotions when you were scolded! There were no shock collars, no physical restraint or handling, nothing other than "yes, good" in a happy voice or "no, bad" in a grumpy voice. The praise made me feel that it was good to try & to keep trying, I wasn't scared, I trusted the person guiding me & it was a great achievement & feeling when we got to the end of the obstacle course ~ all in all, a positive experience I'd be happy to repeat.

But with the verbal telling off it was a very very different feeling. I felt anxious, hesitant, distrustful towards the person guiding me, I hated the experience & ended up just feeling huge relief that it was all over at the end of the course.

There was no e-collar involved, no physical pain, no difference at all really, other than the fact that praise was given for going in the right direction, OR, a scolding was given for going in the wrong direction. Perhaps I'm a whimp, or can't take a telling off, but this really brought home to me the difference in learning through pos reinforcement or through punishment ~ a huge emotional difference & feeling about the whole learning process.

Now exaggerate that a thousand times by giving me an electric shock instead of a verbal scolding & I can't begin to imagine how I'd feel . So not in a million years would I ever ever use an e-collar (or pain of any kind) to train a dog!

Adam ~ I dare you to practice what you preach!! Put the ecollar on yourself & allow a Dogsey member to "stim" you in the same way as above & video it for the rest of us to see!!! Are you up for it?

Yes many rescues will put to sleep agressive dogs. It is a v sad fact that there are far more dogs in the world than there are loving homes for them so rescues have to make difficult decisions
They also have to cover their backs, if they rehome a dog with agression issues and it bites they will be sued

Unfortunatly for any 1 dog who is saved many many will be put to sleep - and should a rescue save the one dog that may take up months of time in the kennel trying to find the home that will take on a dog with a bite history - or make room for the 20 other dogs who could be saved in that time?

and yup I know im a hypocryt
I rescued the one that my heart went out to - and she has issues

It really makes me sick that you are proud to admit you use the device for simple behaviours too
From your videos you have posted I believe you are not very skilled at reading what the dogs are saying to you and so you are not in a good position to judge if they are being hurt or scared

Yup I can handle being punched in the face, dosent mean I like it or it should ever happen

yup these things always make me think of hanible lector
Calmly listning to classical music while butchering a still living person
You dont have to act aggressivly to be performing an agressive act on another person

it is easy (if you have no empithy) to calmly push a button and because you feel no pain from it then its not agressive

That's a really interesting way to do it. I like the comparison aspect! Dogs can certainly feel anxious when scolded a lot (the infamous "he feels guilty!" claim and all) and it's probably good for all of us involved in training to feel a little bit of what it's like to be the dog in a positive reinforcement and positive punishment situation.

I've dealt with it by having two very different clarinet teachers. One always told me what I was doing right, was very encouraging, and in "corrections" was very kind. He would tell me what I was doing well and what (and how) to improve it. I learned so much under him and went very far as a clarinetist.

Then at college I had a teacher who was all positive punishment. He wouldn't ever tell me what I did right, he berated me for everything I did wrong, he told me that I would never make it unless I could do XYZ. He was nasty to me. I was so anxious every time I touched the instrument that I was incredibly tense.

I ultimately got tendinitis and carpal tunnel and had to quit playing.

Now which teacher would YOU have wanted to study with?