Fear Aggression?

Hoping someone out there can help cos im at my wits end with my 1 year old Rescued Staffie bitch. We rescued her and her mum and brother when the pups were 5 weeks old. They came from a very, very bad environment where the lady had obviously been treating badly with sticks, feet, slaps etc! As a result our pup has always been a wee nervous girl and this manifests in her growling if she doesnt like what your doing, ie: rubbing her tummy (sometimes makes her growl), or strangers just crowding her and getting too close (in her zone). She had a snap at a lady outside my daughters school but luckily she knows us and our dogs and understood why this happened. We have changed tactics with the pup and for the last 2 weeks have had no growls whatsover, until last night. My 7 yr old daughter was sitting beside her, and the pup was at my feet (as usual) cos i was on the phone. Well, the pup snapped at my daughter! My wee girl is very dog aware as I work for Staffie rescue and we often have to deal with various dogs. My lass got a big fright, and so did I. Was it jealousy? Maybe over me? My girl was rubbing the pups tummy at the time. Im now at the point of not being sure if I want to keep her as she is a bit untemprimental. Any suggestions would be of great help. Sorry if its a bit long winded, just wanted to give as much detail as I could. Apart from that, she is perfect in every other way (but not so sure of other dogs either)!
Thanks
Nix
PS: have had her checked and shes not in pain round her stomach area.

Well just a few thoughts, it's hard to give advice on this sort of thing without seeing it, and also because it's not wise to give anything other than very general advice over the internet

You say you have changed tack over the last 2 weeks, can you explain what you have done?

One thought I do have is that you did say your dog didn't like being rubbed on her tummy; however your daughter was rubbing her on her tummy when she snapped... I'd suggest that this tummy rubbing is stopped straight away.

Good for having her checked over by the vet

Thanks for replying. What I meant by changing tactics, is that we have not been giving her so much attention as she is a demanding wee girl. trying to reinforce her place in our "pack" which works wonders. What I cant understand, is that she doesnt mind me or OH or my mum or pals rubbing her tummy. For some reason it is a trigger but my little girl has been doing this all along without any reaction from the dog until now. She was told last night not to do this anymore but I worry incase the dog (Dizee) continues to show aggression in other ways. My daughter doesnt wind her up or annoy her because we wont tollerate this kind of behaviour between child and dog. Im getting a wee bit stressed when she is around people now and feel if my daughters friends are round that i have to be there at all times "just incase"? I dont generally leave my dogs with the kids unattended anyway, but I am more watchful these days. Also, she has been know to growl if you touch her when shes just woken up, we always assumed that she was just a grumpy mare! How do you stop this with a nervous dog!? We have never hit her as i dont agree with hitting animals.

Has she always been untrustworthy with your daughter? It does sound like some sort of guarding behaviour was taking place in this latest incident. Seven years old is young and maybe your dog is just not suited to being around children? It is impossible to know from an internet forum what is causing her nervousness; it does sound like a socialisation issue.

Desensitisation takes a lot of work and patience and as you have a young child i'm not sure how you feel about doing that? Personally i'd have a chat with your vet to rule out any medical symptoms then maybe he could refer you to a behaviourist. Sometimes dogs are just not suited to children and the kindest thing to do is rehome them to someone who doesn't have any.

Probably not what you want to hear, but I wish you luck; do seek advice from professionals first though.

How long did you have the mother? What was her temperament like? Was she good-natured both with people and her pups? Were there other dogs of less-than-good temperament in the situation from which you got mum & pups?

Tummy rubbing requires a dog to be in a submissive position, so I would stop your daughter doing that sort of petting right away.

Does you daughter help train Dizee? Will Dizee obey commands (eg sit, drop, come, etc) when given by your daughter?

I would second the opinions that suggest you take Dizee for another thorough vet check, just to rule out any physical problems.

She will pick uo very quickly on your stress and, unfortunately, that may in turn stress her and make matters worse. If she is physically ok then I would suggest a muzzle when you know you will be in crowds, or leave her at home and walk her where she will not be subjected to lots of people close to her.

Always supervise when she is with the children to ensure that your daughter's friends do not crowd her or get her over-excited and wound up.

No solutions I'm afraid, as without actually seeing the dog it is impossible to evaluate just what is going on and, without seeing, it is unwise to give advice on dog-human aggression. The above suggestions of muzzle & supervision are just stop-gap measures which you can implement immediately. But, see the vet and you may wish to consider asking for a referral to a behaviour consultant who will be able to offer advice based on observation.

Her mum is a really sweet natured girl, and her father is a total Gent and considering the level of abuse and negelct that they were sujected to, its amazing that they have come thru so well. Her brother is also a wee softie, but Dizee has been a right growler since day one! Even when with her foster mum for the first 2 weeks. The lady I got them from told me she hated Bitches but loved dogs, the boys were wormed and slept upstairs with her, the girls werent and didnt! My daughter helps feed both my dogs, and helps training, walking, grooming etc and is a gentle but assertive wee lass. I am wondering however, if living in such a busy house is just too much for her and maybe she would be better with one to one. I was always under the impression, for some reason, that I would only long term foster her anyway and as much as I love her to pieces, maybe it would best suit her to re-home her. She is a cracking wee red and would with lots of time and patience be a perfect wee dog.

It sounds to me like the poor dog has been through a bad experience with its previous owners and now thats is come to you it is confused about what to do best to please you. i think you have already started on the right track by changing the dogs position in the pack. the fact that most of the aggression is towards your daughter leads me to think that at the moment your dog looks at her as lower down in the pack than the dog its self. I would suggest that you keep going with the work you have already started. don`t fuss the dog when she wants you to( this goes for all the family) I know its hard but you have to show who is in charge and let the dog know when its time to be fussed. get your daughther to feed the dogs. get her to pretend she is eating some of their food before she gives it to them. Keep the dogs off the couch/ beds/ chairs etc. get your daughter to hold their leads when there out, get her to move their toys. For the time being tell her not to lie on the floor with the dogs. Basically let the dog know through gentle actions that its is below all other house members in the pack order. The pup will watch and learn as it is doing already. I have 3 staffies. One 15yrs, one 8 months and one 12 weeks. They can be stubborn, one of mine always grumbled/ growled as a pup when I got him of the couch, but nows he is fine. Please don`t give up on these dogs, Things will only get worse for them if they are returned and their lives turned around again. You are abviously a kind patient person to have rescued the dogs and to work with them. Be strong, let them know who is in charge and you will see quick dramatic results.

your staffie sounds awfully like my springer rescue flossy was when i first had her ,well for several months anyway.she growled if u approached her bed,went to pet her.in particular this was aimed at my 6year old daughter.we decided it was fear aggression as she is quite nervy anyway and had bewen beaten by previous owner(not known at the time)it has taken 7long months to get her right ish!i still wouldnt say she will ever be 100% with my daughter but she is masses better and my daughter understands after much!!ignoring,training etc etc.good luck with what ever you decide,but be prepared for hard work if you decide to keep her

Hi there

I am very concerned when reading this post that you are using pack theory as a way of behaviour modification. Pack/dominance theory is based on flawed science and in fact can do more harm than good. By using this type of "treatment" to encourage behaviour modification you are in fact just confusing the dog. The worst case scenario is that the dog becomes so confused your relationship breaks down completely. The best case scenario (for you!) is that the dog becomes soooo depressed that it just gives in to whatever it thinks that you are asking of her.

Working with Staffie rescue you should be able to get in touch with some really good behaviourists who can help you sort out this problem. It doesn't sound to me as if it is something that should be sorted out by you. The dog has clearly got some issues - which I might add don;t seem surprising considering her past - and these need addressed by the help of an experienced behaviourist.

You can find a list of good behaviourists at apbc.co.uk or www.coape.co.uk. THese behaviourists with be equipped with the modern methods of behaviour modification and anybody who starts to talk about reducing the dog's position in the pack and dominance should be avoided at all costs. Dogs do not see us as dogs and therefore do not want to dominate us or be part of our pack. Dogs see us as leaders, offering guidance and security for them in times of need. We give them a home, a bed, good food and love. That is all they ask from us.

I personally think that your dog is getting confused with the messages you are giving her. I would like to think that Staff Rescue has a list of good, contemporary behaviourists that can help you with your problems.

If you need more information on why pack theory doesn't work have a look at www.takingthelead.co.uk or read The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. Also, Dominance - Fact or Fiction by Barry Eaton.

This is a very very very old fashioned way of dealing with behaviour problems in dogs but it is one that just doesn;t seem to be going away.

Also, there is the emotion of fear and there is the action of aggression. Roger Abrantes, one of the most prominent behaviourists believes that the 2 just don't go together as one emotion. Therefore, something makes your dog fearful and its reaction is either to fight or to flight. They are two different things altogether. The term fear aggression is, in my opinion, a term used by people who are describing what happens when a dog becomes fearful.

I don;t think that your dog was showing aggression to your daughter. Aggression takes the form of biting etc., What she was doing was warning your daughter of the fact that she didn't like what she was doing to her. Perhaps she has a problem with that area of her body if she was kicked on it before. She could still possibly feel vulnerable.

I think what your dog is experiencing is perfectly natural in a rescue dog. Most of the time that is why they end up in rescue because they have been messed up by other people. To start a programme of behaviour modification without having any real experience in my opinion is putting yourself but mostly your dog at risk. She stands to lose her life if you get it wrong!!!!

Any good reputable rescue will have good behaviourists that they deal with. Don;t take this upon yourself. I believe the reasons are much too complex.

Hope this helps

Kind regards
Annie

This is very dangerous advice indeed. There is no need whatsoever to behave with your dogs in this way. This is one sure way of disassociating yourself with your dogs. This lady should be trying to build the relationship with her dog and gain its trust, not alienate it!! Do you have a qualification in dog behaviour? What experience do you have to be giving this advice?

Staffies are a very vocal dog; they communicate this way and many many are misunderstood because of this.

Please read more widely on the subject of dog behaviour. Read the books I have mentioned above and then come back and discuss them. I am sure you will change your views on dog behaviour.

Annie