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scarter
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22-08-2008, 03:29 PM

Adding a little raw food to a dog's diet

I plan to keep my 10 month old pup on kibble.

She has recently developed allergies - to lots of grass, weed and tree pollens.

I've read that recent (albeit small) studies in humans have shown that probiotic supplementation can reduce allergic reactions to pollen in humans. Separate studies have shown that antibiotics (which kill friendly bacteria) can cause allergies. The mechanism for this is unknown, but it is believed that friendly bacteria in the gut are involved in 'teaching' the immune system to react appropriately. Yet more studies have shown that people with allergies often have low levels of enzymes.

Our pup had several courses of antibiotics when she was very young. There is no history of allergies in her pedigree and she's not a breed that's associated with allergies. Regardless of whether her allergies were caused by antibiotic use, it seems sensible to make sure that she has plenty of enzymes and friendly bacteria in her gut.

So the plan is to keep feeding her a quality kibble to ensure she's getting all the nutrients she needs, but to supplement it with probiotics and a little raw meat to top up the enzymes.

I have researched this and know that lots of people say you shouldn't mix kibble and raw. Others claim they've been doing it succesfully for years. I know of a vet who's also a breeder that pops a raw chicken wing on her dogs' kibble every day.

But before I take the plunge I'd like to hear all the arguments AGAINST my approach. Does anyone think I'm making a mistake? I'm not prepared to take her off kibble all together.
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ClaireandDaisy
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22-08-2008, 04:51 PM
My dogs get raw chicken wings or lamb in the morning and dry dogfood at night. They are thriving. As I understand it, it`s best to feed raw and processed separately.
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Mum To Many
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22-08-2008, 05:40 PM
I feed my 2 mince meat and biscuits mixed for breakfast, and either breast of lamb, or mince again or chunks of meat [lamb or beef] mixed with biscuits for tea, they are much better on this diet than the tins of meat I used to feed them, I don't see the problem mixing fresh meat and biscuits.They get the odd bone thrown in as well , and I give them much less manufactured treats than I used to.
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Ziva
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22-08-2008, 06:13 PM
HI, it's all about digestion rates and kibble's slower digestion rate making raw sit in the stomach longer than it should etc etc etc. Theory is that the raw sitting there for longer means bacteria "could" take a hold whereas in normal circumstances raw meat doesn't stay there long enough for it to be a consideration.

As a rough guide, kibble takes around 8-10 hours to move out of the stomach and raw 4-6 hours.

IMO, it depends on the dog and how robust a tummy they have - if it is easily upset I would feed raw and kibble at different times of the day.

I usually recommend a raw breakfast and a commercial dinner if owners want to feed both. That way they both have time to digest independently as they were intended. I would feed raw for breakfast as it is out of the stomach after 4-6 hours, then the stomach can have a rest before the longer digesting kibble.

Then, theoretically, it should be another 10 hours before they get their raw breakfast!

Hope this makes sense
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Petticoat
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22-08-2008, 06:22 PM
I used to give my Jamie raw lamb chops with kibble when he was younger, without adverse affects, now the boys have raw meat morning and NatureDiet evening... normal poo and coats, infact Jamie's coat is getting thicker
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scarter
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22-08-2008, 07:52 PM
That explanation for feeding raw and kibble separately makes sense.

I think we now feel comfortable about giving her raw meat and vegetables for breakfast and kibble for dinner.

I'm not brave enough to give her chicken wings or anything with small bones as I'd be scared she'd swallow them whole. So for now at least it has to be just meat. I don't mind marrow bones.

So can anyone give me a recommendation on what and how much to give her?

She weighs 10kg and is currently on just over 200 grams of kibble a day. So if I give her 100 grams of kibble how much raw meat and vegetables should I give her for breakfast?

Edit: I forgot to say - there will be no problem getting her to eat raw. She had her first marrow bone yesterday and LOVED it. She's already had a tiny bit of raw salmon and raw mince and loved that. But for my peace of mind I want to start out giving her very safe food. Nothing with bones or higher risk of food poisoning.
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Ziva
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23-08-2008, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
I'm not brave enough to give her chicken wings or anything with small bones as I'd be scared she'd swallow them whole.......

So can anyone give me a recommendation on what and how much to give her?

She weighs 10kg and is currently on just over 200 grams of kibble a day. So if I give her 100 grams of kibble how much raw meat and vegetables should I give her for breakfast?
You're right to be concerned about chicken wings - unless your dog is very small such as a toy breed, they are quite hazardous as they can bend in two places so in theory they are more likely to bend and get stuck if swallowed whole. Scary things wings - I never feed them!!

Anyway, as a very general 'starting off' guide, if only on raw you would feed between 2-3% meat/bone of expected adult weight, not current weight.

So, if her adult weight is expected to be 20kg then 2% would be 400g and 3% 600g.

Whether you decide to do 2% or 3% would depend on how she looks now - if she's podgy, go with 2%, if lean 3% or somewhere inbetween.

So, given that you are doing 50/50 raw and commercial, make your calculation and then feed half that amount.

Don't include the vegetables in the weight calculation as they are a nice-to-have only. Veggies should also be of a good variety and be pureed.

Also, the bone should only make up around 10% of the weight of the meal. So, if you're feeding 200g of meat/bone - the bone element ideally should only by 20g of that. Don't beat yourself up over that bit, just be aware the portion of bone required is actually alot smaller than most people think.

Also, not to start with, but later on, start introducing a couple of small pieces of raw liver in with the meat. Start slowly and then gradually build up to 8% of weekly raw allowance.

For a detailed overview of rawfeeding, take a look at one of my previous postings on it:

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...95#post1427595

And feel free to keep asking lots of questions!
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scarter
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23-08-2008, 02:23 PM
Thank you for taking the time to help!!! I'm having trouble building up confidence to give her bones (other than a big marrow bone).

As you've offered to help, if I tell you what I've fed her so far and what I've got planned for the rest of the week could you tell me how to improve it in nice, gentle steps? Ideally with stuff from Tescos as I haven't found a butcher yet.

Beanie is pretty much full size. She's just over 10kg now (at 10 months old) and will probably only get to 10.5 - 11kg (she's a small framed Beagle). Her fat levels are perfect - she's in great condition and EXTREMELY fit and athletic. I started experimenting with raw food this morning and gave her:

1. 150grams of raw minced beef (top quality)
2. half a chopped garlic clove
3. a teaspoon or so of probiotic yogurt
4. 2 chopped fresh green runner beans
5. a small amount of thawed frozen mixed veg (carrot, cauliflower, brocoli).
6. Fatty acid supplement (prescribed for her itching)

At lunch time I gave her half a portion of Yakult probiotic drink

For tea she will have 100 g of Wafcol salmon and potato adult kibble.

For treats we've given her chopped apple and pear.

Later today or perhaps tomorrow we'll probably give her a marrow bone (She had one on Wednesday too and is still having great fun with it -constantly burying it all over the garden. It's been chewed clean but she still loves it!)

There have certainly been no adverse affects, and in fact today we both thought she was even more energetic than usual in the park. Also, she wasn't pestering people for treats so much. It could of course just be coincidence, but so far so good.

As for the coming week....

I've bought in a big bag of Tescos Value frozen white fish, I have pink salmon and Tesco value choppped turky thighs and bags of cheap frozen mince in the freezer. Also a big bag of carrots, runner beans and a nice dark green cabbage. And plenty of frozen veg. And both yakult and powdered probiotic. Obviously I plan to get her on to cheaper meat once I'm confident about this, but for now I'd rather stick with stuff that we'd be willing to eat!
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angied
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23-08-2008, 02:34 PM
i have stared to feed mine raw in morning and kibble in the evening to be honest they thrive on it. charlies coat has lost the dandruff lokk and is shiney and all 4 have solid poos which also has halved thank goodness the only thing that upset their tummys was pureed veg which i was told to give them. now the veg they have is raw as well
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Ziva
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24-08-2008, 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
I'm having trouble building up confidence to give her bones (other than a big marrow bone).
That's perfectly normal and understandable. I have yet to meet a rawfeeder who wasn't extremely nervous in the beginning, myself included! Don't worry about the bones for now, since she's on kibble as well, she'll be fine.

When you do get the courage, I would start with softer bones - chicken breasts with bone in i.e. the soft ribs still attached. Chicken frames without the wings and legs are very soft too. As long a there is plenty of meat on these bones she will manage them easily.

Originally Posted by scarter View Post
Beanie is pretty much full size. She's just over 10kg now (at 10 months old) and will probably only get to 10.5 - 11kg (she's a small framed Beagle).
I would take the 11kg weight then and probably go with 2.5% of body weight and then adjust according to how she looks on it. That would mean 280g of food, then halved to allow for half kibble diet, so 140g of meat/bone per day.

Originally Posted by scarter View Post
1. 150grams of raw minced beef (top quality)
2. half a chopped garlic clove
3. a teaspoon or so of probiotic yogurt
4. 2 chopped fresh green runner beans
5. a small amount of thawed frozen mixed veg (carrot, cauliflower, brocoli).
6. Fatty acid supplement (prescribed for her itching)

For tea she will have 100 g of Wafcol salmon and potato adult kibble.
My first reaction when I saw all your ingredients was "can I live with you!" ..... it all sounds perfect. My only comment is that minced meat, even top quality, tends to have a higher fat content and also she loses the jaw strengthening and teeth cleaning benefits of chewing, so I would prefer to see stewing beef chunks in that menu, as it's nice and chewy, perfect for dogs.

I don't feed veg, so I'm not an expert on this. However, my understanding is that it is best if very finely chopped or puree'd as dogs can not digest cellulose - that's not a problem tho; it just means it will come out the other end exactly as it went in, so she would lose any of the benefits of it!

Angied - how much veg were you giving as a percentage of the diet? It could have been too much too soon if their tummys were upset.

Originally Posted by scarter View Post
There have certainly been no adverse affects, and in fact today we both thought she was even more energetic than usual in the park. Also, she wasn't pestering people for treats so much. It could of course just be coincidence, but so far so good.
A change in condition and some behaviour changes are often noticed when adding raw to the diet. Commercial is a great convenience food however, even the best quality commerical can never be as good as totally natural food as nature intended. It's kind of the equivalent of you or I living off TV dinners for our entire life. You can get healthy TV dinners and unhealthy ones, yet neither are a perfect substitute for the real deal!

From a behavioural perpsective, it's kind of the same as kids and E numbers and all the publicity that gets. It's no secret that lots of sugary drinks get kids bouncing off the walls for example. Same with commercial dog food - even the best quality ones, still have to have some additives simply to keep the food fresh for a prolonged period of time. Most also have colourings purely for human benefit too (dogs don't see colours in the same way we do, so it's certainly not for them!)

Originally Posted by scarter View Post
As for the coming week....

I've bought in a big bag of Tescos Value frozen white fish, I have pink salmon and Tesco value choppped turky thighs and bags of cheap frozen mince in the freezer. Also a big bag of carrots, runner beans and a nice dark green cabbage. And plenty of frozen veg. And both yakult and powdered probiotic. Obviously I plan to get her on to cheaper meat once I'm confident about this, but for now I'd rather stick with stuff that we'd be willing to eat!
As above really, absolutely no problem with any of it. Start slow with the veg, don't make it a significant portion of the diet - meat, meat, meat and a little bone is the key. Again, try to stick to chewable meat rather than mince that will just be swallowed as is.

Fish is excellent too and can be fed up to 3 times a week. The oily fish is best - small mackerels, small herring, sardines etc, and Salmon not caught from the west coast of North America (San Franscisco to Alaskan border). For the oily or other fish, choose small fish, as small fish haven't had time to absorb as many toxins from our polluted oceans/rivers/fish farm waters.

If you would like to read up on raw and all the benefits behind it, particularly regarding the feeding of bones - take a look at "Work Wonders" by vet Dr Tom Lonsdale - 6. It's an excellent and easy read and I'm sure will totally put your mind at rest.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Work-Wonders.../dp/0975717405
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