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Lynn
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24-05-2016, 11:39 AM
Maybe she is the oracle.
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Moobli
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24-05-2016, 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by tawneywolf View Post
Well before the availability of genetic testing, I had dobies. ALL FOUR went on to develop this terrible disease, they weren't related. Vet said it was 'one of those things' and there was no test to determine who had it, you just had to wait and see. As it doesn't show itself till around 6-8 years old that meant I had been breeding puppies with the potential to develop DM or The Wobbles as it was known. I never bred my blue girl, she developed it, but at least she never passed it on, in fact I never ever bred another dobie. When walking was no longer possible, they took that sad one way trip to the vet. Once my blue girl, Piaf, went there were no more dobies, as to me the risk was too great. Hence the fact I am red hot on health testing, if the test is available I will do it. I think it's about time the KC made health testing mandatory for all dogs shown or bred from, no tests, no registration for puppies or entry into the ring after a certain age when the relevant test for that breed should have been completed
Wobble Syndrome or Cervical Spondylomyelopathy in the Dobermann is not the same as Degenerative Myelopathy in the GSD. However, of course both are devastating conditions for their owners.

I was actually asking if you health test your Utonagan type dogs for all the health tests available within the breeds that are in its make-up ... such as DM.
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Moobli
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24-05-2016, 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by Jackie View Post
I agree if you can test for something then you should, but I am a bit confused I thought that you can breed a carrier to a normal , without a risk of producing carriers, I know you can in porties, as you need to have both parents to be carriers to produce effected.

Is it different in your breed for your genetic health issues.
As far as Laboklin and OFA are aware (at the present time) the test identifies dogs that are normal (have 2 normal copies of the gene), those who are carriers (have one normal copy of the gene and one mutated copy of the gene), and those who are at much higher risk for developing DM (have 2 mutated copies of the gene - designated affected/at risk).

On the Canine Genetic Diseases page they say this ...

Microscopic examination of a section of spinal cord (following euthanasia) is the "gold standard" for diagnosing and confirming DM. We do not have the opportunity to examine cord samples from all the dogs that have died or been euthanized due to DM, but for those cords submitted for evaluation, and where the cellular changes have been consistent with a diagnosis of DM, the dogs have had a DNA test result of A/A in all but 2 individuals. There is additional work being done to better understand these 2 exceptions, but it is clear that the vast majority of real DM cases do have the A/A test result.

Summary: Dogs that test A/G or G/G are very unlikely to develop DM. Dogs that test A/A are likely to develop clinical signs of DM at some point as they age. Additional research now in progress is focused on understanding why some A/A dogs show clincal signs of DM at 7 or 8 years of age while others only begin to show clinical signs at 14 or 15yrs or older, or may die from some other cause without developing recognized clinical signs of DM.

The “A” allele is very common in some breeds. In these breeds, an overly aggressive breeding program to eliminate the dogs testing A/A or A/G might be destructive to the breed as a whole because it would eliminate a large fraction of the high quality dogs that would otherwise contribute desirable qualities to the breed. Nonetheless, DM should be taken seriously. It is a fatal disease with devastating consequences for the dogs and a very unpleasant experience for the owners who care for them. Thus, a realistic approach when considering which dogs to select for breeding would be to consider dogs with the A/A or A/G test result to have a fault, just as a poor top-line or imperfect gait would be considered faults. Dogs that test A/A should be considered to have a worse fault than those that test A/G. Dog breeders could then continue to do what conscientious breeders have always done: make their selections for breeding stock in light of all of the dogs’ good points and all of the dogs’ faults. Using this approach over many generations should substantially reduce the prevalence of DM while continuing to maintain or improve those qualities that have contributed to the various dog breeds.

Summary: We recommend that dog breeders take into consideration the DM test results as they plan their breeding programs; however, they should not over-emphasize this test result. Instead, the test result is one factor among many in a balanced breeding program.


So definitely not as straightforward as only breeding from dogs testing clear for the G/G alleles as is being advised here.
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Lynn
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24-05-2016, 12:12 PM
If Ollie had been DM tested he may well of come up clear.
He wasn't though as he carried a rare genetic mutation in his neck not the gene which I believe is now being tested for.
A lot of Bernese are now also being tested before breeding.
So there is always a risk in whatever you are testing for that it may be there but not in the form recognised and tested for.
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Moobli
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24-05-2016, 12:12 PM
Here is OFA's explanation regarding the test for DM and it's use in breeding programmes.

http://www.offa.org/dnatesting/dmexplanation.html
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Moobli
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24-05-2016, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Lynn View Post
If Ollie had been DM tested he may well of come up clear.
He wasn't though as he carried a rare genetic mutation in his neck not the gene which I believe is now being tested for.
A lot of Bernese are now also being tested before breeding.
So there is always a risk in whatever you are testing for that it may be there but not in the form recognised and tested for.
Absolutely Lynn, and this is the conundrum for all breeders who are trying to do right by the future of their breed.
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tawneywolf
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24-05-2016, 01:30 PM
And I have told you that yes I do health test all my dogs. Interestingly the guy at Laboklim tells me I am wasting my money as he's not yet come across a Utonagan with DM. Have also had the test for Cataracts, hoping that the parents of any puppies you may decide to breed have had this test as well.
I also litter eye screen my puppies at 6 weeks old, give the Canine Herpes Vax during the mother's pregnancy, do full blood works prior to any mating, vet check the puppies and mother within 24 hours of birth and vet check again prior to them leaving for their new homes. I would also hope that this will be the case with the puppies you will be responsible for.
When you have had to help your dog into the car because it can no longer achieve that small task, trying to sound 'normal' and positive, your dog wants to get in the car because it loves going out in the car, this time you are taking your dog to its death because it can no longer walk or move, it makes you realise you do not want to be responsible for any other dogs making this (avoidable) one way trip. When the end has come and you've stopped holding your dog, you are allowed to cry and show your grief, till then anything that will upset and unsettle your dog has to be firmly reined in. OK lets say The Wobbles and DM are totally different, the ending is the same, so why would anyone wish to have that on their conscience when it is avoidable and there are tests out there to stop it happening.
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Moobli
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24-05-2016, 01:53 PM
You still haven't answered the direct question about whether you test all your dogs for DM ... not other conditions. I have no doubt you are a caring and conscientious breeder. However, the point is that the DM test is not considered accurate by many many people who are far more knowledgeable than myself about DNA and genetics and that is what worries me. That perfectly healthy, excellent specimens in all other aspects may be passed over because of a flawed test hence reducing the gene pool for future generations and possibly throwing up other genetic defects through inbreeding.

I believe that the more dogs that are tested the more research can be done, and I hope that one day DM - and the more pressing problem of hemangiosarcoma - can be eliminated from the breed. However, as everyone I have spoken to (inc vets) have said that the test results should be given as much weight as any other flaw or defect in a dog/bitch and weighed against the other benefits a particular dog can bring to the future gene pool.

In terms of hereditary cataracts, one of the recommendations for the ABS for GSDs was Hereditary Cataract, yet no dogs with this condition have been found when screened under the scheme. In view of this the Breed Council have decided to substitute the HC test for the one for DM. So, in short, no I have no reason to test for HC.

In terms of care of bitch and pups pre, during and post whelping as I have already said, the bitch's owner is a vet in Europe and the bitch and pups will receive the very best in care and management.
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tawneywolf
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24-05-2016, 02:25 PM
If I am in contact with Laboklim with regard to DM testing and he's told me he's never found it yet in Utonagan, and I AM WASTING MY MONEY then it surely goes to follow I have spent the £80 per dog with them. Short of displaying the relevant paperwork on here, and after all said and done its about you wishing to breed from a DM carrier, not about me, who wouldn't. There may well be mutations that don't show up in a test and I would have total sympathy to any breeder who had a clear test which was then proved wrong at a later date when there were puppies on the ground. If in the event of a breeder using an identified carrier, then my thoughts would be very different. More with the owners of the resultant litters
You are the one responsible who would have to live with that fact, so its down to you in the end. No amount of fudging the issue with various learned papers changes the bare facts. He's a beautiful boy, excellent worker,but a carrier when it comes to it
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Moobli
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24-05-2016, 02:31 PM
The test is actually £66 per dog - but no matter. I just found it strange that there is only one dog on your website displayed as DM clear but, as you rightly say, that is your business.

I am happy to agree to differ on this matter with you now. I would be interested to know just how many Utonagan or wolf-lookalike dogs have actually been tested at the Laboklin lab as of today though, if you have that information?
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