I can imagine if I offerd kaos a treat at the same time as I gave him a mild shock,
A} I would first need to follow him to the corner where he would likely be weeing himself
B} he wouldnt take the treat, he would think it would bring another shock on,

C} he would hate me and be so confused.

I really cant see why anyone would use them, more so for things that are minor training issues.

I must admit I can see why someone would use one in certain, extreme conditions. If the dog's life was at risk and if all other things had been tried (by experienced trainers) and failed, hand on heart I have to say that I would consider it.

But never ever for normal training nor, for example, keeping the dog off some grass.

Am I the only one who finds this enthusiasm for aids to punishment a bit ...disturbing? Particularly in someone who doesn`t actually train their dog?

As regards Scarter, she always gives the impression of quite an expert dog trainer and quite often offers advice to anyone having some problems with training. I find this even more disturbing that she is thinking of electric fencing rather than training the dogs, which she is more than capable of, from what I have read.

Scarter has stated that she doesn`t train her dogs. Her profile gives her experience.
Make of it what you will.

Except for breif mentions of possible training of deaf dogs (which Patch manages to train without these collars) I had only ever heard of them used in conjunction with electric shock or punishment - so the dog learns the vibration will be followed by something unpleasent

A negative marker depends on the dog and the handler
I think the negative marker to mean something really nasty is gonna happen if you carry on with what you are doing - that is so wrong and can cause stress and fear in a dog

A 'no' 'pppssstt' or whatever depends on the dog and how it has been trained, Mia seems to have been trained with lots of negatives and if you say 'no' to her (or Ben) she jumps all over you giving you kisses and being cute to try and devert you from telling them off. Ben is trying so hard to do the right thing that anything but a gentle 'try again' looses his confidence and he goes off on a sniffing mission

A pretty strong reason to not use any negative markers

very true - funny but sad as well
It just shows what dogs can be conditiond to tho - that we can make them assosciate an electric shock with a positive

But just cos you can dosent mean you should - I am sure if you worked hard enough you could condition a dog to love a prong collar - or a beating

Good point. Its sad that people are so lazy that they just expect a perfectly trained dog and any problems need quick fixes - usualy punishment based
They are missing out on (IMO) the joy of owning a dog, training and learning and that bond when a happy grinning face locks the lazer eyes of focus on you and works with you so closley its like they are reading your mind

Oh, OK...... but she offers advice....

No the lawn will be fine, and no i dont see the point of fake grass. I just need to keep the dogs off the grass
ATD x

I think we've discussed this before and I told you that my oldest doesn't respond well to a negative marker (e.g. 'no') but the youngest does. Although we tend not to use it with him either simply because we got into a habit with our oldest. I think it could help with him to learn though. Have you stopped using negative markers altogether with yours - last time we talked you were switching to a 'gentler' marker than 'no' as you feared that anger and frustration could result in the 'no' being shouted? Back then I think you said the negative marker helped your dogs to learn faster?

But yes, I read an article on the Karen Prior site (not by Karen Prior) that claimed that negative markers should never be used as some dogs do shut down in response to them. The author claimed that it's near to impossible to detect which dogs would react badly so it's best never to use them. Certainly the "When Pigs Fly" book advises against them. Also our agility teacher. A behaviourist we consulted suggested we use them.

I think it makes a difference whether the marker is perceived to come from the handler or not. For example, with clicker people often advise that you hold the clicker behind your back so the dog doesn't associate it with you. And this indeed works better with my two. It follows then that a negative marker that they don't associate with you might produce better results? So a device of some kind rather than voice. This has the added benefit of improved accuracy.

For Ben I say 'try again' and right away make it eaiser for him to suceed
For Mia, although she seems more bomb proof in many ways we found that in agility even with no marker if she did something and didnt get rewarded then she zoomed around the room
It took a while for myself and Carol to spot the connection that Mias zoomies were not her being over stimulated or unfocused but were frustration that she had tried and didnt get it right
we not work on the principle that I have got something wrong and so reward Mia and then try it again making it easier for her to suceed and then give her a bigger reward for a perfect performance

and interestinly enough once we had spotted that and really looked at all the dogs in the class it turns out that 1/2 of them were loosing confidnence even with being made to think they had done it wrong - not even with a non reward noise. You had to be really looking to spot what was going on.

My training now is mainly making the inital steps easy and vvvv rewarding - lots of jackpots, short training sesh's and every time the difficulty increases increasing the rate of reward
I am finding that is giving super fast results and the treats are actualy phased out faster (although I always treat sometimes)

As for the punishment not comming from me
I know what you are saying but in my mind if a dog shuts down worried that a punishment is going to come from you it is only going to be more worried that the punishment may be coming from ANYWHERE else in the world and in the begining he has no idea why - sounds more likley to cause a soft dog to shut down more