sorry - I wasn't criticising, just trying to be helpful

As for dogs digesting bananas quicker than meat, dogs do not digest raw plant matter very well at all, which is why if you follow the BARF diet, as I do, you will puree carrots, broccoli etc. etc. I do feed raw bananas, and I also feed carrots chopped up, as well as pureed, and they come out as they went in, undigested. There have been many debates on Dogsey about whether or not dogs can digest raw plant material - mine definitely cannot - and I remain totally unconvinced that ANY dog can, simply because they do not secrete the necessary enzymes - cellulase. As for digesting sugar, not sure they produce sucrase, do they?

That is why I said in my original post on this that dogs can and do metabolise fruit and vet IF it is frozen, pureed or cooked.

Dogs do not have the necessary enzymes which are secreted in the saliva to break down cellulose or sucrose, or lactose, however this does not mean they cannot benefit from fruits and veg as instead of the commencement of breakdown high up in the digestive tract, this is accomplished in the lower digestive tract by bacteria.

As I said before, all dogs are individuals, all my dogs have digested fruits and vegetables very well. But some dogs have deficiencies just as they do in various parts of their bodies which means dogs can have EPI, thyroid problems and be diabetic.

Phytonutrients are not found in animal products and include:

- Carotenoids, from carrots, papaya, pumpkin, squash, sweet potatoes, broccoli, asparagus, kale, green leafy vegetables, peppers
- Lycopene, from tomatoes, watermelon
- Flavonoids, from tomatoes, sweet potatoes, cruciferous vegetables
- Indoles, from cruciferous vegetables
- Sulforaphane, from cruciferous vegetables
- Anthocyanins, from wild blueberries, bilberries, black berries
- Sterols, from cruciferous vegetables, cucumbers, squash, sweet potatoes, eggplant, tomatoes
- Elegiac acid, from Strawberries
- Lignans, from nuts and seeds

Some of the benefits of these are already known (both to man and beast) and some are still being discovered.

Interesting what you say - I thought that the pancreas secretes enzymes to digest food though - and dogs' pancreases don't secrete sucrase or cellulase. Even pureeing plant matter does not enable the dog to fully metabolise all the vitamins, minerals etc., but it partially helps, it is the closest we humans can come to mimicing the natural diet of canids.

My dogs as far as I am aware have no deficiencies - one is a wolf cross, the other is a utonagan, so both closer to the natural than some. Neither of them digest raw carrot, and it comes out as it went in. The same applies interestingly to my daughter's pedigree chihuahua, who isn't at all wolfey of course (although he thinks he is, and runs with the big boys for miles every day!). If everyone is to believed on Dogsey though, there are dog owners who report that their dogs seemingly digest raw veg, so it is very interesting a subject.

And what did the experts say about these foods and cancer in dogs at this seminar?

And what do these nutrients actually mean to the health of a Canine V's Human?

Cancer was not discussed.
It is known that sugars feed cancers hence why it is recommended that cereals and grains are not fed (even if they have been fed before by those feeing a commercial diet)

Fortunately in fruits and vegetables a) they are not fed in large quantities and b) there are high glycemic and low glycemic ones.

So the health benefits of the phytonutrients outweigh any perceived risk from any sugars that may be contained as quantities normally fed are very small.

(A bit like the garlic debate; we know ANYTHING in excess is potentially toxic including oxygen and water) however fed in small quantities garlic is extremely beneficial to dogs.

Most of the above are powerful antioxidants in the and, with vitamins C and E, protect the body from the free radicals that degrade many organs during the aging process. Elegiac acid may also have an effect on slowing down the growth of some cancers.

Again, antioxidants have to be fed prudently as in excess, they can become pro oxidants

sterols are excellent for overall immunity and may help in any dog with auto immune diseases.

In humans enzymes are produced in the saliva in the mouth and this is wherre digestion begins. In dogs these enzymes are either not produced or are produced elsewhere as you say in the pancreas, (with the exception of lysozyme which breaks down bacteria).

Therefore the great bulk of any digestion of cellulose will be conducted by bacteria in the lower gut.

There are of course not only deficiencies found in dogs through illness but individual breed idiosyncrasies which may require dietary manipulation such as zinc deficiency in sled dog breeds; again something that demonstrates the need to consider the individual requirements not only of each dog but individual breeds to ensure they receive the total spectrum of nutrients available.

but they are in fruit and veggies and hi/low GI just means some are faster released than others in humans

Plenty sugars in banana, apple etc and certain veggies

but what are they? (what benefits?)

Isnt that what happens when they get Dire Rear? When the bacteria changes in the lower intestine.

As I have already stated, because dogs are consuming a very small amount of fruit and veg the risks re cancer a minimal (nothing in life is risk free even feeding raw poses risks).

I thought explaining that these phytonutrients were mainly antioxidants and their protective action was sufficient, what more explanation do you need?

Diarrhoea can be caused by many things, including the feeding of excess laxative foods (too much raw liver for example; as well as some vegetables and fruits). Feeding fruit and vegetables in moderation should not cause diarrhoea in dogs unless of course it does not agree with them individually.

Millions of people successfully consume stuffed vine leaves, they do not agree with me, so I avoid them.

The liver and pancreas release digestive enzymes into the small intestine where the food pulp created in the stomach is further broken down. The smallest constituents of the main nutrients, protein and fats, as well as carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals are then absorbed from the small intestine into the bloodstream.

What has not been absorbed then enters the large intestine, or colon, where any remaining water and nutrients are extracted and absorbed.

The colon is not merely a conduit to the anus...........

I remember phytonutrients being the buzz word of the late nineties, early norties - but I thought their cancer preventing powers had been poo pooed now? Can't remember by whom, where or when, but I remember OH telling me.

Still say if you don't produce the enzymes, you can't fully and properly break down the product. Dogs are primarily carnivores, and only have a very small requirement for vegetative matter, mainly for roughage. They obtain very little actual goodness in the form of vital minerals, vitamins etc. from plant material, but they still require a small amount, mainly for fibre?

You cannot open a paper without seeing X is good for this, followed the next day/week/month by the same paper saying X is now bad for you!

Because research moves on but usually because reporters selectively quote and take statements out of context and/or the studies are looking at different things!

Dogs are scientifically carnivores (which is totally different from being obligate carnivores) but this does not stop them consuming and metabolising things well (or not) any more than it prevented cows (herbivores) from consuming and metabolising dead poultry or my horse who used to enjoy a ham sandwich!